How to ensure appropriate volume?

[Ezmar]

So, I have had a consistent problem, not with any particular place, but in general, where I'm not loud enough. This is, I believe, due to an all-too thorough understanding on my part that I don't need to be the loudest thing on stage, and I give the sound guys the benefit of the doubt. As a result, I'm told that I can barely be heard, because I'm too quiet. I tend to not want to turn up because I don't trust myself to not go overboard and end up dominating. So I suppose I could turn up, and let the sound guy bring it back down if it's too much, but if they don't bring it up when it's too quiet, won't they either bring it back too far again, or not notice that it's too loud?

I'm mainly asking this for A particular concert coming up this summer, it's a Rock camp with a concert by 10 or so bands that get put together, and everyone uses the same bass amp, just an 8x10 Cab, without any visible head, I don't think, although there's probably one there. I don't want to mess with it too much, because They get it set up for all the other bass players, too, and I'm one of the only ones who doesn't just plug in, I'm kind of a tone junkie, so I usually bring in my Pedal, a multi-unit, usually run dry except for the occasional growl here and there, and I use the footpedal to adjust volume on the fly, but I usually have it maxed out while playing, so I can't push it any more if I'm too quiet. One thing is I could sound check with my pedal at half volume, but that seems unnecessarily sneaky and confusing for the sound guys. I also could ask them about it, but I really don't want to sound like I know what I'm doing and they don't, because these guys are professional musicians and sound techs, and really do know what they're doing WAAAY better than I do.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know I need to say something about it, but I don't know the best way to go about it. I can't just say "I need to be louder than the other guys", because that's just kind of dickish. I mean, the way they have it set up is like it's just enough for the bass to cover the bottom end, the fundamental, and anything else kind of gets lost, and I like to have a very articulate bass tone, and so I guess my playing just gets lost the way they set it up for everyone else. How can I tell them that I need My bass tone different than the other guys? I don't really know how to go about it other than eating up a large chunk of sound check time, which they try to get done as quick as possible for the other bands, because they do it for each band separately, because the guitars generally use their own amplifiers. Is there any polite way of going about this? I don't think it's just me, because I listen to the recordings of the show, and talk to people, and they agree, that my playing is barely audible. I don't want to seem like I want special treatment or anything, I just want my Bass to sound the way I need it to on stage. They do have their hands full, with trying to rein in ten bands' worth of often overzealous guitar players, but I think that they could spare a moment and make sure the Bass is coming through right. I'm guessing they probably check to see if they can tell there's a bass player and say "Okay, he's there" and move on to more pressing matters. Is there a way to politely say that I need to be louder without sounding entitled or angry? It will be weird, because I won't be able to tell if I'm loud enough or not basically until it's too late, because I can't tell that I'm too soft when I'm on stage, so I guess I need them to pay more attention? But if they didn't notice it last year, then why would they notice it this year, even if they were "paying attention"? Again, I can't tell when I'm up there how loud or soft I am, so I can't adjust it really, even in an emergency. Is there a way to bring it up that I need to be heard more?

Last year it was even the guy who worked with our band the entire time who was doing the sound. I suppose they just don't worry about the bass, because most of the other people just play basic stuff that doesn't need to be too loud or prominent. I should probably mention that this is a High-school age group, and I'm one of the "Older" guys. So yeah, any way I could put my mind at ease and be sure I'm going to be heard the way I need to?

[MuzikMan]

Let me just say it because I'm thinking it. You guys sound like a metal band. How does the band as a unit sound? I know I am going out on a limb here, but if the guitars are very loud then turning up the bass will not help the mix. I am only guessing on your situation but I suppose it is as good of a conversation starter than anything else.

[Gearhead17]

Is this a problem of hearing yourself on stage or getting your bass tone heard out in the audience? Sounds like more of an issue with the sound guys.

The multi-effect unit - are you using a distortion/effect on it? The key to getting your bass audible with distortion is making sure there is a good amount of midrange between 200hz and 800hz. Many times distortion units will suck out the midrange to make the distorted sound more "pleasant/cool sounding". In reality, a raunchier and more midrangey distortion will stick out in the mix. You can set it so it stands out without killing everyone.

Other than that, what are you sending the sound guys? Sounds like the clean signal off of the multi-effect pedal. Is it the pre signal? (Just your bass). Or is it the effect pedals' version of clean tone? You could be giving the sound guy a terrible signal to work with. What are the settings on your bass? If you are jacking up the low end on the bass guitar - guess what the sound guy gets? A massive low end boost! Which means he will either turn your signal down or massively compensate your sound to work with the room.

Other than being at the event, the best way we can help to solve this problem is to make sure you are giving the sound guy a good signal to work with - nothing massively boosted or cut. Since this is a multi-band event, keep your signal simple overall and life will be better. If you are going to use the distortion, use it the whole time or just use a good clean sound the whole time.

[Ezmar]

One: No, not a metal band at all. It's not that the guitar is too loud, it's that the bass is too quiet, and I think what I might have been trying to say was that I play with a very bright and punchy tone, with more emphasis on the mids, so it probably tends to get crowded out by the guitar more than others who just play the low end. Also, the other bands usually have too many guitars, because so many sign up, and they have some just playing power chords, which makes supporting the bass redundant.

Two: I just send everything clean, I did last year. All modules set to off, even the EQ. The only thing I used it for was turning my volume off when I played Keyboard. The "grit" I refer to is just a tiny overdrive, to get that Geddy Lee Chris Squire tone. Just a little edge. other than that, everything off. My bass is a Squier J, so I just have the pickup volumes and tone, no EQ circuits. This is a problem about being heard in the audience. I can hear myself on stage just fine, and I'm heard in the audience, but I could stand to be a little louder, because our band is usually a little smaller, because we're the best players, so the way I play, I need to support a little more of the sound. I play the Geddy Lee style, where I support with harmonic and melodic lines beyond just the base notes, and that stuff isn't getting heard. The whole thing is just a little quiet. It's like they had it turned down for the other guys who had all three guitarists playing Power chords, and never turned it up for a standard rhythm - lead - bass setup where the bass needs to be strong. It's more like it just wasn't strong enough. it was there, but it was really weak.

So yeah, I'm just using basic tones, I just use the pedal as a little maintenance station if I need to do something, but I usually don't touch it. it's there just in case. I just wish I had more time at sound check to fine tune my tone, and mess with it a little, but we're given time to run through our songs and that's it. Is there any way to tell on stage if I'm strong enough? probably not. I just think I need to tell them to make sure I'm nice and strong, because It was just weak. Another thing is my bass is relatively low-output, because if I crank my little practice amp, it still come out clear at max volume, and with some other basses, I get that speaker distortion. I'm also going to get it set up, get the action and neck bow set, and have the pickups adjusted, because right now, they're kind of uneven, a little low, and that might be part of the problem, too.

But I think the bigger problem is just the fact that I don't feel I can trust the sound guys. Sure, it's not a real serious gig, or anything, but it's supposed to give these kids a chance to play in a rock concert, and even though the sound guy won't always be amazing, I don't think that's a piece of flavor they're adding to the experience. I basically am starting to feel like I can't trust sound people, and I think I'm getting a little on the paranoid side. I mean, it's good to prepare for the worst, but I should at least expect them to have my back. Even in other stuff, where I'm not loud enough, I can't tell if I can be heard, so I've got to be able to rely on them to make sure I can. I really shouldn't have to worry about this, although I can probably understand why they would have dropped the ball, because we still sounded great, and it was the end of the night, we were the last ones to play, and it was a great end to a great show, I'm just disappointed that I was basically up there on stage serving almost no purpose, because I was just so barely audible. It was good, but in all honesty it would have been MUCH better if the bass had been nice and strong. So I guess I just need to make sure they make sure I'm good and strong in the mix, but I really don't know how I can do that without sounding like I'm criticizing them too much. It's not like they made a huge mistake that made everything terrible, most people probably didn't notice it, and we were still the best group of the night. It's just a little disappointing to have been wasting my effort up there, playing nice, neat little bass stuff that nobody could really hear. I don't want my playing to go basically unnoticed, because that's not the way I play bass. If I need to play that low-key stuff, I can, I can fade into the background if I need to, but I don't want to be stuck in the background no matter what I'm playing. I mean, I had a bass solo, in an aretha franklin cover, a nice soul tune, and on the recording you hear maybe 5 notes.

Sorry, I'm just getting a little worked up about this. but it's frustrating, because I don't get to play often, and when I do, I want to be able to show off how well I can play, and instead I'm barely audible. I'm not looking for the spot light here, I just want to be out on the stage. It's frustrating, but I'm sure I can get it worked out.

[Gearhead17]

I hear you dude. I play so many shows where I have not the slightest clue if people can actually hear me through the PA. I have no clue what my bass sounds like in the audience either. I have never been asked what kind of tone I go for live either. Unfortunately, most of us are at the mercy of the sound guy. If he thinks bass is not that important, guess how loud you are going to be?

Regardless, you should talk to them and mention your friends in the audience all said your bass was too quiet the last time you played. Blame your gear right away and put him/them on the spot on how you can get a better tone through the stuff you have. Keep asking them questions about what possibly went wrong and listen to them. Just tell them you want to be heard in the mix. Don't mention your skill level or anything else. No matter what happens, the sound crew will most likely pay MORE attention when they sound check you. It only takes a second to turn the bass mix up.

Be respectful and do not let yourself get worked up about it. If this backfires, maybe the sound crew is not worth your time.

[JohnMCA72]

You've got to work with people. A huge part of that is communication. The sound crew can't be expected to do what you want if you don't tell them what that is. Be respectful & ask them for help in solving a problem; don't just get all "rock star" on them & tell them how to do their jobs.

Keep in mind that, in a festival environment like this, they've got to make compromises all over the place. That's just the nature of the beast. They've got to keep the show moving along, & if that means that each & every band has to sacrifice some of their unique sound for the greater good of the show as a whole, then that's what's going to happen. Talk to them early on, when things are relatively calm & they've got time to work with you, not at the last minute while everything's changing over for your set.

You could always bring your own sound man ("Band Engineer", or "BE" in industry parlance) who knows the sound you want & how to get it. Of course, the sound crew isn't going to let just any joker off the street get up there & start mixing. They'll have to be vetted, so the crew knows that your guy knows what he's doing & isn't going to cause a disaster. It needs to be set up well in advance, & not just sprung on them the day of the show.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Ezmar

This is a problem about being heard in the audience. I can hear myself on stage just fine, and I'm heard in the audience, but I could stand to be a little louder, because [etc., etc.,...]

if you can hear yourself, you're loud enough. the rest is up to the soundman.

if you don't trust him, crank up, but that can be a recipe for a bad mix.

also, may i suggest way shorter posts?

[Ezmar]

Sorry, I can't help myself! I always have to over-explain things, because I don't want to be misunderstood, and it just always gets away from me and I get carried away.

I think I could hear myself, but I probably heard myself just as well as the audience, with a little help from the monitors. In all honesty, I think that I don't trust myself to not be too loud, because when I'd play guitar in Jazz band, I'd have to use the same amp as a speaker and a monitor, and I'd barely be able to hear myself, but it would be the right volume for jazz, so I think I got used to assuming I didn't need to be loud to be loud enough. But really, You can't really hear it, but it was just really weak. like it was barely there. If I'm listening to it, I have to try really hard to pick out the parts where the bass is actually audible. it was better at the concert, of course, but I still should have been louder. I don't think this is just a musician ego thing, I really think I was WAAY too low down in the mix. Like I said, the sound guys were kicking back at this point, having gone through 9 or 10 other bands that were all pretty similar, and then we switched it up, and the bass was just too quiet. And I can't crank it up if I don't have any headroom, which is what happened, I couldn't have been any louder, because everything was maxed out on my little pedal, and I wouldn't want to mess with the amp and confuse the sound guys.

...crap, I did it again, didn't I? Sorry, I just keep thinking of stuff to say!

Also, My computer is crappy, and can seize up for several minutes at a time, quite frequently, which gives me a long time to think of things to say.