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  #21  
Old 11-21-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMFoodBass View Post
Yeah. And therein lies the catch 22.

Our sound guys are extremely faithful and dependable as far as being on time, and willing to learn. They read about it and do Internet research all the time. But they just suck at mixing. And they've gotten to the point that can't hear and constructive criticism about it from the worship team members.

Honestly, if they had half an ear for mixing (and weren't so bull headed), they'd be dang good sound techs.
The thing that helped me most when I was starting out was the band leader coming out into the room and telling me what he liked and didn't like. He made it very clear what his expectations were for the mix, so I just mixed the way he told me to.
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRazor View Post
Yeah that's great if you can afford it. Churches like mine can't.

Trust me on this... lockout plates are like $8 each... RTA/Configure can be as little as a few hundred bucks...

Much of what I find as sound issues have to do with bored folks tweeking things that don't need to be tweeked.
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  #23  
Old 11-21-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNAirHead View Post
Much of what I find as sound issues have to do with bored folks tweeking things that don't need to be tweeked.
LOL. Reminds me of a guy who used to run sound at our church. Heck of a nice guy and pretty smart, but he absolutely could not leave a good mix alone. We called him "Fiddles" cause he was constantly messing with the board even after he had gotten a decent sound dialed-in.
  #24  
Old 11-21-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNAirHead View Post
Trust me on this... lockout plates are like $8 each... RTA/Configure can be as little as a few hundred bucks...

Much of what I find as sound issues have to do with bored folks tweeking things that don't need to be tweeked.
I'm talking about having a pro come and calibrate your system. THAT is expensive.

The board at my church has a built-in RTA and lock-out options. Not concerned about that.

I tweeked a lot of things that didn't need to be tweeked in my early days because it was the only way I could learn how they worked and how they affect the sound. Now that I know those things I know what to adjust.
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  #25  
Old 11-21-2012, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRazor

I'm talking about having a pro come and calibrate your system. THAT is expensive.

The board at my church has a built-in RTA and lock-out options. Not concerned about that.

I tweeked a lot of things that didn't need to be tweeked in my early days because it was the only way I could learn how they worked and how they affect the sound. Now that I know those things I know what to adjust.
Not that expensive - less than the gear you post about
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNAirHead View Post
Not that expensive - less than the gear you post about
I know. Apparently we had $7000 to spend on a mixer back in 2009 and now we can't spend a couple hundred dollars to have a pro come in. I've asked on numerous occasions. Same goes for the cost of IEMs. We've only had half the band on IEMs for the last 2 years or so because of financial constraints. And yet they can go spend $3000 to record an EP...

We've needed new speakers for about 3 years, can't afford it (supposedly). We have no acoustic treatment, can't afford it (supposedly)...The list goes on...
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2012, 03:24 PM
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I actually don't know, but once when I was sitting in for a praise group at a Catholic Church, the priest actually came up to the music loft while we were warming up, got in my face with a pointing finger one inch from my nose and said, "You WILL turn that bass down!" Then he turned around and went back downstairs. I was so low I couldn't even hear myself. Will never play at that church again. I had my StingRay at 25% and the volume on my old Fender Rumble 100 just barely 25% and he wanted it turned down.
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay View Post
I actually don't know, but once when I was sitting in for a praise group at a Catholic Church, the priest actually came up to the music loft while we were warming up, got in my face with a pointing finger one inch from my nose and said, "You WILL turn that bass down!" Then he turned around and went back downstairs. I was so low I couldn't even hear myself. Will never play at that church again. I had my StingRay at 25% and the volume on my old Fender Rumble 100 just barely 25% and he wanted it turned down.
I think in that situation I would have played normal volume. You were a sit-in, what are they gonna do, fire you? Either that or I would have picked up and left on the spot.

And anyone who puts their finger in my face better not plan on using it for awhile. Priest, president, I don't care. Respect goes both ways.

Last edited by jaywa : 11-21-2012 at 04:09 PM.
  #29  
Old 11-24-2012, 01:17 PM
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We're a pretty consistent 100dB.....with the occasional peak up to 103-104.

This is in an old theater that we converted for church, seats about 950, we do two services Sun. morning.......no difference in volume level.
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  #30  
Old 11-24-2012, 01:42 PM
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This is one area I have fought so hard for so long....

Mine (church) was 110dB in a place that could sit about 150 at most.

I brought it up. Several times. I brought information from OSHA and other sources. My audiologist volunteered to come to the church and give a talk for free.

Nope.

I recommended that a nursery/cry/quiet room be set up with TV/sound so you could watch the service from there.

Nope.

My son and I spent many hours helping set up the board, as we were short on knowledgeable volunteers, and everyone just went up there and moved knobs without knowing what they were doing as long as it sounded loud(er) than before.

We cleaned/organized the musicians area since apparently they didn't care to keep it clean and organized themselves. I bought a pack of drumsticks for our drummer, because all he had was broken ones since he hits so hard. I offered to help pay for a cage if other people chipped in.

No. The answer was no.

We donated gear (amp stand, cables). We tried to do everything possible to earn some goodwill points so at least our concerns were heard.

I still had to go stand in the hallway, or sometimes even outside. The times I played the bass were very uncomfortable since the drummer decided to hit harder with the new drumsticks I bought for him.

The keyboard player blasted his amp and no one, not even the singers could hear themselves.

Nothing I could do or say really mattered.

And I'm sad to say it, but the only thing that mattered was that I show up and pay my tithes and offerings.

I gave up.

I now support an evangelistic/missionary organization, and my wife and I tune to an internet service every week, and we hold family bible studies and prayer sessions.

I won't go back (to a regular "traditional" service). Enough was enough.
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Last edited by PrietoBass : 11-24-2012 at 02:03 PM.
  #31  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:12 PM
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My church seats about 300 with two services. Around 90-95db if I remember right. Soundmen do their best but still think the bass should sound like a home theater sub. I took a year off because you get tired beating your head against the wall. I'm going to start up again at the start of the year because I really feel pulled to serve. But I'm going to try one more time to work on bass tone in the FOH. I'm going to plug my BDDI in straight at the board. I will do part of practice there again trying to educate the soundman on frequencies above 100hz................
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  #32  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrietoBass View Post
This is one area I have fought so hard for so long....

Mine (church) was 110dB in a place that could sit about 150 at most.

I brought it up. Several times. I brought information from OSHA and other sources. My audiologist volunteered to come to the church and give a talk for free.

Nope.

I recommended that a nursery/cry/quiet room be set up with TV/sound so you could watch the service from there.

Nope.

My son and I spent many hours helping set up the board, as we were short on knowledgeable volunteers, and everyone just went up there and moved knobs without knowing what they were doing as long as it sounded loud(er) than before.

We cleaned/organized the musicians area since apparently they didn't care to keep it clean and organized themselves. I bought a pack of drumsticks for our drummer, because all he had was broken ones since he hits so hard. I offered to help pay for a cage if other people chipped in.

No. The answer was no.

We donated gear (amp stand, cables). We tried to do everything possible to earn some goodwill points so at least our concerns were heard.

I still had to go stand in the hallway, or sometimes even outside. The times I played the bass were very uncomfortable since the drummer decided to hit harder with the new drumsticks I bought for him.

The keyboard player blasted his amp and no one, not even the singers could hear themselves.

Nothing I could do or say really mattered.

And I'm sad to say it, but the only thing that mattered was that I show up and pay my tithes and offerings.

I gave up.

I now support an evangelistic/missionary organization, and my wife and I tune to an internet service every week, and we hold family bible studies and prayer sessions.

I won't go back (to a regular "traditional" service). Enough was enough.

I have been where you are several times over the same stuff
and I can tell you for sure there are Churches out there that are better and worth serving in
But hey home groups are just as good in my mind whatever makes you Happy
  #33  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:56 PM
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Where I used to play bass, and do sound on occasion, the dba was 83 to 92 depending on the service and song. We played in an old high school gym type place so there was a lot of echo.

I feel you on the bass tone. Been dealing with that everywhere. If you say something they get mad because it is their territory. Well, if they knew better it would be. Finally, I would just put in the inner ears and adjust what I like there and to heck with the rest. If the congregation complains it will change. Oh yeah, I totally agree about the finger in the face.
  #34  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:43 PM
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I am sound/computer/bassist guy, so I move around a bit!

We run 90dBs for 9:00AM service on Sundays and 100 dBs for the 10:45 service.

On Wednesday nights in youth...who cares? Youth like it loud. So, we feed the demand.
  #35  
Old 11-25-2012, 08:51 AM
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Interesting. I feel too many Churches are getting heavy into video production and contemporary Christian rock music in an attempt to provide entertainment in order to maintain a membership roll and keep the coffers full. The problem is over 90% plus of the churches don't have the talent pool to draw from and the frustration of not having the right gear ( usually due to budgets) and a lack of skilled paid employees to operate these systems that lay persons just can't quite get a grasp on.

I'm a fan of church being there for its one true purpose which is to hear the word. I'll save my rock and roll for concert and club venues where I feel it belongs. To each his own. This is what our country was built on, the right to not worship at all or in any manner we choose as long as we don't shove it down the throats of others.

But the idea of getting hit with anything over 90db in a church would disrupt my worship experience, but then again I usually check my emails and fantasy football line ups when the "band" starts "rocking" a number out.
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Last edited by Keithwah : 11-25-2012 at 08:54 AM.
  #36  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:56 AM
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We are normally 98 to 100db. Large church.
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  #37  
Old 11-25-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaywa View Post
I would interpret that to mean, it's a "professional sounding", balanced mix but the volume is on the low side compared to what most people would associate with live music environments (86 dB is pretty feeble). Which actually, is what a lot of churches are looking for so I would take it as a compliment.

Unless of course they're talking about a transistor radio.
Maybe I should have said a distant radio. Comments from musicians who listen say that there is no definition, especially with guitars. There definitely is no "in your chest thump" from bass or drums. I've heard recordings taken from the board and they sound drenched in reverb and pretty feeble.
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  #38  
Old 11-25-2012, 11:58 PM
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TFPM has an article this month on knob fiddlers


----/-

One of the blessings about 3rd party rta evaluation is they can be the mean guys and set individual limits for instruments

------
Has anyone had luck with db gated limiting?
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  #39  
Old 11-26-2012, 12:10 AM
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May be I am asking a stupid question but as there is no church music scene in Germany like in the US I wonder, if it is normal to measure or track the loudness level of services. Is this required in the US ?
  #40  
Old 11-26-2012, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithwah View Post
Interesting. I feel too many Churches are getting heavy into video production and contemporary Christian rock music in an attempt to provide entertainment in order to maintain a membership roll and keep the coffers full. The problem is over 90% plus of the churches don't have the talent pool to draw from and the frustration of not having the right gear ( usually due to budgets) and a lack of skilled paid employees to operate these systems that lay persons just can't quite get a grasp on.

I'm a fan of church being there for its one true purpose which is to hear the word. I'll save my rock and roll for concert and club venues where I feel it belongs. To each his own. This is what our country was built on, the right to not worship at all or in any manner we choose as long as we don't shove it down the throats of others.

But the idea of getting hit with anything over 90db in a church would disrupt my worship experience, but then again I usually check my emails and fantasy football line ups when the "band" starts "rocking" a number out.
As long as the church band maintains a heart of worship and loves Jesus, I don't see a problem with hardly any musical style.

And anything over 90dB? The crowd clapping can be that loud on its own. An un-amplified drum kit can go over 90 with no problem, even with a plexiglass shield. And don't get me started on guitar amps.

I'm always shocked whenever I hear someone think that anything under 95dBA is loud. I admit that's louder than I listen to music in my bedroom, but for a live band that's nothing.
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