huge live rig against combos and house PA?

kanonfodr · #1 04-05-2012, 03:21 PM

Well I just got accepted into a new band today, and I'm super stoked except for one part: I have lost my sound along the way.

Practice is in the drummer's basement and nobody's cranking their rigs so I've split off between bringing either my 210 or my 115 with a Fender Pro400 head. Even then I'm hardly pushing my amp, but I've lost my sound! The 15 is nice and filling while the 210s had plenty of punch and together they sounded GREAT! And live I never had a problem being heard, even in a 6-piece heavy metal band.

While I can learn to work around the quiet practice thing and shelve my tone for shows, nobody is bringing sizeable rigs and cranking them because everyone is running through the PA for FOH and keeping the stage volume quiet. I know where to set my rig up for a loud stage and to fill up the dinky bars I'm used to playing while having a nice tone that sits well with both of my basses I play out with.

So in the end, would it be kinda butt-holish of me to bring my entire rig for a show where nobody else is going to be playing loud on stage and just try to punch through on my own when everyone else is running through the PA? Or do I have to go the expensive route and get back to trying to scrounge up gear that works for me?? And if so, does anyone want to buy my rig?? It's currently for sale

Peace,
Greg

Barisaxman · #2 04-06-2012, 10:07 AM

I would suggest not trying to overpower the rest of the band...could be the shortest gig you've had, as there's a good chance they've made a conscious effort to reduce stage volume (soundman's dream) and you really need to find a way to play along, or find a louder band. It's hard to tell what "your sound" is from your post, but unless you're cranking a tube amp for natural overdrive, there's probably a reasonable way to achieve it at a reasonable volume.

KingRazor · #3 04-06-2012, 12:20 PM

I'm not saying you have to do this, but:

Were I in your situation, I'd try to find a way to get "my sound" or even something better, that I can have at a quieter volume.

Consider this: louder sounds better. Meaning, if you can get something to sound really good at a quiet volume, then it will only sound better at a louder volume.

So if you can get the sound you want with just the 210 or 115 at a relatively low volume...then if a time comes where it's desirable to turn up, it'll sound even better.

ggunn · #4 04-06-2012, 05:17 PM

My personal preference by far is to play with as low a stage volume as I can and let the PA do the heavy lifting, especially if I am working with a competent sound guy. Standing next to my rig it is next to impossible for me to tell how balanced I am with the rest of the band out front if I'm playing for the room with my onstage rig. YMMV.

ga_edwards · #5 04-08-2012, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barisaxman

I would suggest not trying to overpower the rest of the band...could be the shortest gig you've had, as there's a good chance they've made a conscious effort to reduce stage volume (soundman's dream) and you really need to find a way to play along, or find a louder band. It's hard to tell what "your sound" is from your post, but unless you're cranking a tube amp for natural overdrive, there's probably a reasonable way to achieve it at a reasonable volume.

There is. It's called a power soak/attenuator. Something like the THD hot plate or one of the various cheaper alternatives.

musicman7722 · #6 04-08-2012, 07:49 AM

I use an Avatar 2x10 and a single space MBF500 and full FOH. Sounds good to me. Err I also use IEM now

Marko5657 · #7 04-08-2012, 08:42 AM

OP sounds like a couple guitarists I’ll never play with again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barisaxman

I would suggest not trying to overpower the rest of the band...could be the shortest gig you've had, as there's a good chance they've made a conscious effort to reduce stage volume (soundman's dream) and you really need to find a way to play along, or find a louder band. It's hard to tell what "your sound" is from your post, but unless you're cranking a tube amp for natural overdrive, there's probably a reasonable way to achieve it at a reasonable volume.

+1. I’d try some quality smaller amps, maybe a combo.

JamNight · #8 04-08-2012, 09:18 AM

IMHO unless you are playing really big stages or stadiums, there is no need for a tower of power (other than it looks super cool). If you have a good front of house with subs, and a good sound guy I would take advantage of that. In this situation, you only need to be able to hear yourself in a mix on the stage and not worry about the audience. In fact, a good sound guy will insist on a low stage volume, because if the sound "bleeds" from the stage, it is hard for the sound guy to control the FOH sound. Long story short, you don't won't to overpower the FOH sound with the stage sound. When a PA system does not exist and you are relying on amps alone, you will need to use louder volumes to reach the audience throughout the venue. I have a good FOH, subs, and our own sound guy, so all that I use is an Ampeg BA600 combo even in the largest clubs.

kanonfodr · #9 04-08-2012, 09:46 AM

Appreciate the words, guys. It very well may be that I just don't like having my rig set on 2 so I will continue working with it. Unless someone wants to trade me for a sickly powerful and portable live rig

And I definitely don't want this gig to go away, these guys are doing epic music.

Peace,
Greg

Smallmouth_Bass · #10 04-08-2012, 10:39 AM

I think you're in an ideal situation! Get a small combo or smaller setup and use a SansAmp Bass Driver (or something similar) in the front to mimic a driven tube amp. Keeping stage levels down is really key to getting a good live sound. It may not look cool, but you'll get over it!

Medford Bassman · #11 04-08-2012, 12:24 PM

I agree with the quieter state volume. I run sound for my band, so I have the luxury of setting FOH. Guitarist and keyboardist use IEM. Drummer and I use powered speakers for monitors. Since I can dial in my own custom mix, I leave the amp in the trailer and either use my digitech BP355 or BDDI straight into the board. Quiet stage and easy as heck to dial in FOH.
HOWEVER, I only recommend this if you run the sound or really trust your sound person. IMHO

Session1969 · #12 04-08-2012, 12:49 PM

Yeah, it's an adjustment to the ears . You might find that you haven't lost your tone as much as you thought as well.

cheapbasslovin · #13 04-08-2012, 01:55 PM

IME, loss of tone sometimes means 'I can hear my mistakes or technique issues more.' It was for me when my bands went from stupid loud to not.

+1 to if it sounds good quiet, it sounds better loud.

MNAirHead · #14 04-08-2012, 06:12 PM

Quick answer from the #1 post - you don't belong in this band

Marko5657 · #15 04-09-2012, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Quick answer from the #1 post - you don't belong in this band

I hope he doesn’t blow it.

TimmyP · #16 04-11-2012, 10:56 PM

90% of the rigs I encounter (or more) have a range of frequencies that is way too hot in the room. 90% of those don't have the EQ needed to fix the problem. Keep it quiet on stage if you want it to sound good out front.

cbrn123 · #17 04-12-2012, 12:12 PM

Having been a sound tech for 28 years and bass player for only 3 years, I can completely take both sides of this issue. Several thoughts here. First of all, don't dismiss a good SS amp. they do a much better job of putting out quality sound at lower volumes. Next, look for an inline attenuator to place between the head and cabinet. It will allow you to crank the head yet lower the volume delivered to the cabinet.

Last, I will say that losing your loud cabinet is a compromise, but a compromise for the better. At some point you have to trust the sound tech. Even if playing direct, the thin sound you hear through a monitor of IEMs is for your reference, not for you to hear what is heard at FOH. Enjoy a much less stressful gig as you let go of the pride that all of us musicians have and just learn to trust others.

/\/\3phist0 · #18 04-16-2012, 08:58 AM

I went from a big ( 2 svt fridges and an 18" horn -- metal---- to trace Elliott ah600 with swr Goliath big Ben -- to markbass traveller 2x10 / 15std )
To a single markbass Jeff Berlin combo and am Happy as a lark.... Now when I'm back playing the big gig it'll just be my monitor... It's nearly as loud onstage as the big rigs were I leave the skull crushing to the pa. I don't need to compete with full stack guitards anymore nor will I ever again .
If you have to mic the drums just to hear them for ex ur too loud lol.

The guitards used to tell me they couldn't get their sound without the full stack gained with master on 4 or higher ( in a garage sized rehearsal space) still got ringing in my ears...

SteveC · #19 04-16-2012, 09:04 AM

What an ideal gig. Everyone is on the same page with minimal stage volume, good FOH, perfect. With all the gear that's available, there should be no reason you can't get a good sound at any volume.

scottfeldstein · #20 04-16-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barisaxman

unless you're cranking a tube amp for natural overdrive, there's probably a reasonable way to achieve it at a reasonable volume.

Even if you are cranking a tube amp for overdrive, there are ways to get that kind of sound at lower volumes. There are all kinds of products designed to do that and some of them are quite good. I can't really recommend any, as the OP hasn't really clarified what his sound actually is, but I'm sure there's something out there that'll do it.

This whole discussion is one good reason why I love my current philosophy of getting "my sound" completed by end of my pedal board chain. Then I can use any amp, PA or monitoring system. I can put the signal to the FOH, to my stack, to a mixing console, to headphones--it always sounds like me no matter what. When you rely on your amp to get your sound, this doesn't work.