i hate sound guys

[MNAirHead]

I understand your note below.. live sound is a bit different. Most bands will waste efforts over "tone" and never understand the limitations of gear, staffing, room acoustics and budgets.

I'm not a sound guy -- I do understand that studio quality sound is not cheap.. or fast.. or universal day after day.

Tim

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

Something I've noticed about "techy" people in any area - sound, computers/networks, car repair, whatever: Quite a few have attitudes about the users, as if they know all & the stupid users don't matter. Now, not everybody is that way, but it's a common attitude that crosses many industries. The guy who knows how to set up & run all this complex equipment just has to be smarter than the "dumb users" (musicians). Never mind that the users are the ones with an actual vested interest in the outcome.

It's really just a matter of customer service; recongnizing who the customer is, & that your job is to serve them, not vice versa.

By the same token, a lot of musicians don't seem to understand who their customers are, either...

JM

[kalle74]

As a professional FOH engineer (and a bassist), I´ve seen the worst resulting with:

-Musicians who play way too loud with yellow foam earplugs deep into their ear canals (halfway into their brains most probably)... Most of the times "their sound", and playing, is also a jumble...

-Poor hall acoustics (combined to above). Say RT 4 sec...

-Inability to discuss and adapt to the above.

I don´t have a problem miking a bass cab (snake/board lines and mics permitting, of course) as long as the mic line actually contributes to the sound, or having high-y levels in the wedges (if singers know their technique). All it takes is a good rider (with all the necessary info), or a call well in advance.

It´s all about discussing your needs in a friendly manner, and making the necessary compromises.

However, I get put off by arrogant rocker attitudes. I´m there to make you sound good, but if you **** up your sound out of ignorance, I don´t give a ****. I still get paid.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

It's really just a matter of customer service; recongnizing who the customer is, & that your job is to serve them, not vice versa.

By the same token, a lot of musicians don't seem to understand who their customers are, either...

Amen

[BongoBoyLA]

Rule #1... Be nice.
Rule #2... Avoid being a PITA
Rule #3... Be firm about using your gear, but only while observing rules 2 & 3

You especially need these skills when you start working with monitor engineers.

Now here's a little joke about monitor engineers:

What's the difference between a port-o-john and a monitor engineer?

A port-o-john only has to take **** from one ***hole at a time.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Guess they didn't know what sound check was for also. How hard is it to speak up about a "boomy" bass sound onstage during sound check?

I've run into that a****** before - I overhear his post-gig bitching to a friend about "...not being able to hear a thing the whole show" and I have to say "Why didn't you say something three hours ago, when I could have fixed it?". Anyone that f'ing stupid should not be on the stage.

[azureblue]

When doing gigs that involve using a for hire sound man or venue supplied sound man, I have a stage layout / needs sheet that gets attached to the contract or sent to the sound guy ahead of time, and also carried to the gig.

It has the layout of the band's gear onstage, what inputs (DI, mic) are needed, who sings or doesn't and where the mic stands need to be placed. It has an overhead drawing of the drum kit as will be used, even a note that the drummer has a hole in the front kick head. It also has notes for special needs, like the drummer's electronic drum head that he uses for FX and special percussion sounds, and guitar layer's loop pedal that needs a clean send. It also has notes about how we like the onstage mix to be, and how we like the overall sound of the FOH to be- like "we like the sound mix of xxx well known band a lot". It has the names of the musicians and who speaks for the group in case of trouble.

And, when I arrive for the gig, I go to the sound guy, shake his hand, and make sure he has one of these sheets. Musicians, you would not believe how easy this simple thing makes everybody's job. I played a gig notorious for a cranky sound guy, how hard he was to get along with and get anythign out of. When I handed him this sheet, he practically teared up in gratitude. He said that this has everything he needs to know it, easy to read and refer to. The sound was great the whole night, he was a happy camper, and we were, too- an ounce of prevention...

[gareth dunster]

Every musician should do time as a sound man. The whole thing would be better for everyone.

[roysloco]

Originally Posted by BigMac5

TimmyP:

I was reading your band rant #1, there's a lot of good information on there for all band members.

http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/BandRant1.htm

Thanks for posting that, that's some of the best information I've ever read regarding live bass sound!!!

If I can, I always turn the bass amp so it's pointing sideways across the stage because it's primarily for me as a monitor (and for the band), not the audience - they have the pa for that. It's weird though how many people set the amp up so it's pointing straight out to the audience when it's really not required.

Often at a gig you'll not get everything you want (your sound out front combined with a beautiful and inspiring mix on stage). However, I think the reason things get 'icky' between sound techs and musos is that sometimes when you ask for a change you get an attitude which either says "I really can't be bothered with what you want", or says "I'm flippin' awesome and you're just some clueless numpty, you're doing it my way".

The difference between sound techs I like working with and ones I don't is almost always that attitude - it makes a big difference to how I'm gonna interpret not getting my own way.

[PBass101]

I hate it when people think I'm a clueless numpty.

[roysloco]

I hate it that they're sometimes right!

[lunarpollen]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I find that sound problems from bleed are vastly overrated unless bands go up and just blare out of their amps as loud as they can. I've worked with soundmen who want eliminate every last little bit of bleed, and without fail, their mixes suck and have zero energy. OTOH, can't be a d-bag and turn a 1000w amp up all the way, but a little bleed never hurt anyone.

There's nothing wrong with bleed, in fact I prefer a lot of the stage sound to contribute to the overall sound, with the PA serving as reinforcement. Unfortunately, in many instances I've known band members (usually guitarists) who turn up way too loud so that even the mix in the PA can't compensate for the amount of volume their amps are screaming into the room.

[lunarpollen]

One big live sound pet peeve of mine is when a room and a PA is set up so that when the mix sounds great at the soundboard, it sounds like crap in the rest of the room, especially where most of the audience is. I hate going to see a show and having to stand next to the mixing console the whole night in order to hear things properly. But that's still better than when the mixing booth is way off in some obscure corner not facing the stage or on another floor entirely, and the soundmix sucks for the audience.

[JimmyM]

Timmy's rant made me laugh hard. Sorry but I'm not going onstage with a rig I don't like, a thin sound I don't like, and aiming it in a way I don't like just to keep a little bleed out of FOH. I can't tell you how much of a non-issue I consider it. I don't believe in making soundmen's lives miserable with too much volume either, but I'm going to make myself and the band comfortable onstage and that's all there is to it. I want my rig behind me facing front and nothing blocking it, and that's the way it goes.

Nor am I going to tell any drummer I work with to put towels on his drums or play with tiny sticks to make the soundman's life easier. The rare soundman who makes demands like that will no longer earn any money from our gigs. If the drummer hits hard, there is a reason for it. And that reason is drums sound different when being hit hard, and some types of music demand only that sound. Deal with it.

Have to admit I agree about the guitarist and keyboard player rants, though Our keyboard player constantly rides his volume pedals because he won't fix the volumes. Fortunately our demand for different sounds isn't that great so it's not usually an issue, but it always makes for whacked out sound when he changes patches to something out of the ordinary.

Timmy, while being somewhat correct with the raw facts, your rant doesn't take stylistic considerations into account. I've always considered the soundman's role to take what the band sounds like onstage and transfer it to the PA. You start dictating where the amps are placed or how the drummer should play, and you run the risk of changing the character of the band for the worse, and at the very least you'll bum them out to where they can't do their job. And if they can't do their job, people will not come and see them, and if people don't come see them, you're out of a job, too. Make no mistake...the people come to the club to see the bands, not the sound system.

OTOH, bands have a responsibility to not go into a club and whack themselves off at the expense of everything around them. Beginning bands often do that. But many experienced musicians also do it. So here's the deal...offer them advice, even tell them to turn down if you have to, and if they don't, let the owner pull the plug on them.

Bands need to remember one very important thing when they play a club or bar...the band's number one function is to sell drinks. I don't care how much of an artiste you think you are...that is your function. If you play on 11 but you draw 200 drunks with money, you can get away with 11. But if you can't draw, you need to be smart with your volume and do what the clubowner or soundman tells you to do. You want to do a kegger in the woods? Crank up. But if you want people to pay you for playing, you need to work within the room's limitations and rules. Simple as that.

As always, it's a 2-way street, and the tie goes to the people responsible for making the money happen. Fortunately, on my gigs, that's usually us, so I get to dictate. I'm always happy to work with a soundman on getting a tone that works for the room, but it took a long time to get to that position, and I rule with an iron hand if I have to. Later this week I have a gig at a venue where the soundman hoodwinked me last year by asking if he could run a DI with my mic and blend them, but he turned my mic off. This year I won't let him set up a DI. I work with Bowzer, he's the one selling the tickets, so what I say goes. See how that works?

BTW, any soundman tells me that my sound isn't special enough to mic...that will be your last gig ever with me.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

I've run into that a****** before - I overhear his post-gig bitching to a friend about "...not being able to hear a thing the whole show" and I have to say "Why didn't you say something three hours ago, when I could have fixed it?". Anyone that f'ing stupid should not be on the stage.

Yeah, well if it wasn't for obnoxious soundmen treating bands like morons and frightening them into shutting up, maybe they wouldn't be so afraid to ask for it in the first place.

[Bardley]

As a soundman first, bass player second, I think the biggest problem I run into when doing a sound gig is attitude. If both the musician and sound tech approach the situation in a friendly, professional manner, chances are both will come out satisfied. Always take the high road in a confrontation and avoid douchebaggery. That being said, EVERY musician should learn the basics of live sound (including the challenges) and what it takes to convey a band's performance to a crowd. I believe it also helps as a sound tech to know a bit about what it takes to be a musician as well. Just remember, you are both on the same team and trying to accomplish the same thing, a great show. (I know there will be the occasional exception, nobody is perfect) A bad attitude on either end will only widen the gap and will ruin quite a few shows.
When I am mixing, I will try to accommodate just about anything the band needs within reason. The only time I ask someone to turn down or change something is if it is really hurting the house mix or if we do not have the equipment to do it properly. I also try to explain the reasoning behind any suggestions and emphasize that it is for the good of the mix. I have no problem with micing a cab, using their DI, taking a line off the amp, or whatever. I just want it to sound great and be able to hear everyone in the band at a reasonable level for the venue.

Treat the sound tech like you would treat a member of your band (other than your drummer ) and unless he is just a total prick, you should get a professional attitude in return.

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by gareth dunster

Every musician should do time as a sound man. The whole thing would be better for everyone.

Would it also be beneficial for every sound man to spend time as a musician?

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by BigMac5

Would it also be beneficial for every sound man to spend time as a musician?

In theory, perhaps. But it does not take musical talent to know what reproduced music should sound like - so long as one has good references (quality recordings of quality music, played on quality equipment.

There can be a down side to the musician as mixperson. Musicians tend to have an affinity for their instrument - as one would hope. When it comes to mixing, musicians tend to let their affinity affect the mix in favor of their instrument.

[Barisaxman]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

BTW, any soundman tells me that my sound isn't special enough to mic...that will be your last gig ever with me.

Nothing at all wrong with this, but keep in mind that there a few, if any, microphones on the planet that have flat frequency over the range of your bass. By miking your cabinet, you're already introducing additional tonal characteristics to your sound.

By merely playing through a PA, you're actually adding additional things to your sound. Playing a 4x10 (or 8x10 cabinet)? Guess what, if you're playing through a PA, you now are hearing what a 4x10 tone sounds like through 12, 15, and/or 18" drivers. It's all give and take. PA's aren't perfectly flat in response. If you want your tone and your tone only, you're going to have to carry the venue with just your rig, and chances are you didn't dial in your tone based on how it sounds 50 feet away from the cabinet.

[BassLife77]

I get even. I turn my bass down to 3 and play soft so the soundman has to turn the volume up on my channel. Then I turn it up to 10 during a quiet section in the music

[Barisaxman]

Originally Posted by BassLife77

I get even. I turn my bass down to 3 and play soft so the soundman has to turn the volume up on my channel. Then I turn it up to 10 during a quiet section in the music

Which makes you (and your band) look like a complete "f**king" idiot. Seriously that's troll material. As a sound guy, the first musician that does that through my gear, and the board and PA gets shut off and you go home...likely with a bill to take care of any drivers you damaged. At what point is being an idiot worth it to you? At upwards of 400 bucks for repairing and replacing some higher end drivers. I think you'd learn your lesson after one bout of stupidity.