IEM TRICKS - From Email requests.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

In my own experience people usually need an adjustment in their ears once every service. Might be something small but it's rare that they play a whole song set without wanting to adjust something, having it right there on their body pack makes that really easy.

We haven't bought anything yet though. We're going to meet this Sunday and hopefully decide then on what we want to try...

Before we were looking at the Roland M-48 system, which gives every member of the band a small mixer to mix 16 different stereo groups, has EQ, reverb, ambiant mic, the works. But it's crazy expensive and really, most musicians don't need that much control. Plus it would add a lot of stage clutter.

If it helps your meeting...
The Rolls PM351 has a stand mount... I have blended more me with this.
---
I own an Aviom... also a digital board.
From my experience... Unless all players are used to it... understand it... gig frequently etc, it commonly becomes disheartening as you now have all players fiddling with knobs... say it's 8 players and 8 channels... that's 64 knob fiddlings going on.
While flexiblity via ipod or knobs are cool... commonly in a common church environment it may be a distraction from getting the job done.

Plus Cabling for my Aviom is a headache

----

Interested in your AT suggestion

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

[i]

2 EARS RULE....
Overall... while it "looks" cool to have one in...there is a "2 ears" function of hearing that makes this not a smart way to go...

Yep. Using a single IEM is a good way to damage, ironically, the ear that is being "protected". If you are hearing something only in one ear it doesn't sound loud even if the SPL is very high, so the tendency is to turn up a single IEM to damaging levels to be able to hear it over the ambient sound.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

If it helps your meeting...
The Rolls PM351 has a stand mount... I have blended more me with this.
---
I own an Aviom... also a digital board.
From my experience... Unless all players are used to it... understand it... gig frequently etc, it commonly becomes disheartening as you now have all players fiddling with knobs... say it's 8 players and 8 channels... that's 64 knob fiddlings going on.
While flexiblity via ipod or knobs are cool... commonly in a common church environment it may be a distraction from getting the job done.

Plus Cabling for my Aviom is a headache

----

Interested in your AT suggestion

Well, we just had a sound meeting yesterday and the band leader doesn't seem interested in the rolls units. He was turned off by the idea of everyone having a main mix. He wants each band member (or at least, everyone with an instrument) to have individual control over everything. So, I guess we'll be waiting until we can afford the Roland M-48 system.

So, I guess we'll just keep going with half the band on IEM, half on wedges or amps.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

As noted personal (more me mixers) added to the mains is a proven reliable solution

+1 for the reliability part , I agree. In setups where you can't have your own mixes , works great with a personal mixer EXCEPT that there may be some nasty Phasing issues.

I've been in situations where the more I turned me up in my IEM , the less I heard myself. (cancellation caused by latency + direct)
The ideal is a L-R mix , without you , and you add yourself.

Always ask the Monitor guy NOT to put yourself in the mix he's sending you if you are in a situation where you have your own mix and your personal mixer.

[MNAirHead]

2 new lessons learned

Dual Pickup basses & Personal mixer

ABOUT the GIG
MegaChurch - 16 full time staff --folks for band production....isolation rooms to mix monitors and mains.... 6 camera video etc

Personal mixer-----
The venue was run as tight as a Swiss watch .... I left my iem board in the car.... We sound checked practiced -- then at show time intensity changed - I had no control over "more me" I could have stealthed it and hidden it near the drummer



No more single pickup basses----
This was the "ah-ha" moment..... So we get done with the very legato ballad--- I had the low cranked .... Then there's a plan change --- over the iem, the producer says "winter wonderland - now"

What's the problem????

On a single pickup bass I boosted the low (3 band preamp) and played very light....

IF I would have been on a 2 pickup bass I could have rolled off the bridge pickup

So what's the problem???

We hit a rockin version of a tune next -- my bass is sending +15 db... This clips the dibox/board..... Sound guy dives for the fader --- and....effectively muted in the mix


----

The sound crew was expecting to get yelled at (their body language)..... Instead we talked it through

1-if I would have had a personal mixer ... I would have never knew they burried me--- I'm sure video crew was scrambling to keep me off camera as I had confused face--- with a personal mixer I would have never known the mix change - I wouldn't have disappeared in my iem

2-never occurred to me that "compensating" with the preamp changed the control room's mix

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by ShowKing

Thanks, setting up as part of my board seems like the way to go.

So i dont really need a body pack right?
I can just go directly into the pm351?

Also, if i go bass - board - psm351 - FOH ... Where does my amp fit in?

Body pack---
Many times well add a limiter for hearing protection...,, - a shure psm200 wireless can be used as a body pack or board limiter

If you trust you're not getting blasted, can send a limited signal and will not encounter feedback then you can gamble with no Limiter

----

Amp ---
The "right" answer is move toward no amp if your "earphones" have good isolation you'll not hear your amp

Bass signal options...... Direct connect to a rolls pm.... Di out/thru to pm351.... Amp preamp out to pm351

My preferred is bass->di->pm351.... This gives sound crew 2 places to tap into a di signal

[ShowKing]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Body pack---
Many times well add a limiter for hearing protection...,, - a shure psm200 wireless can be used as a body pack or board limiter

If you trust you're not getting blasted, can send a limited signal and will not encounter feedback then you can gamble with no Limiter

----

Amp ---
The "right" answer is move toward no amp if your "earphones" have good isolation you'll not hear your amp

Bass signal options...... Direct connect to a rolls pm.... Di out/thru to pm351.... Amp preamp out to pm351

My preferred is bass->di->pm351.... This gives sound crew 2 places to tap into a di signal

Thanks for clearing that up
If i go DI to pm351, do i use the instrument input or mic input on the 351?

Much appreciated

[Jerry Ziarko]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

If you trust you're not getting blasted, can send a limited signal and will not encounter feedback then you can gamble with no Limiter

Just my opinion, betting your hearing or your eyesight from a catastrophe is not a gamble anyone should take. I gambled with my hearing when I was young, with stage volumes. I now have, and will have, significant hearing issues for the rest of my life. Don't do it. You have ONE set of ears. Spend the money and do it right.

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by Jerry Ziarko

Just my opinion, betting your hearing or your eyesight from a catastrophe is not a gamble anyone should take. I gambled with my hearing when I was young, with stage volumes. I now have, and will have, significant hearing issues for the rest of my life. Don't do it. You have ONE set of ears. Spend the money and do it right.

There's no "+" that can be assigned to how much I agree with this. NEVER take an unnecessary risk when your hearing is involved. Music isn't the same if you can't hear it.

[MNAirHead]

As clarification---


Your PA system can send a limited signal

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by ShowKing

Thanks for clearing that up
If i go DI to pm351, do i use the instrument input or mic input on the 351?

Much appreciated

Normally instrument is for the instrument

Mic is for ambient monitor mic and or vocals

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

As clarification---


Your PA system can send a limited signal

In a church this can be hit or miss. It all depends on who's running the board and their level of experience.
I was playing at my church last year and one of the volunteers tripped over the network cable attached to my Aviom. The resulting pop through the system caused enough damage that my hearing is still distorted to this day.

My point is that if there's gonna be a limiter on your IEMs, make it at YOUR end. It's safer that way.

[MNAirHead]

Aviom (yes I own one of these setups)

I STILL go .... Aviom->Rolls-Shure Psm

----

You're right

As we've previously discussed, the ONLY time I trust the supplied signal is when I own and control all of the gear

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

2 new lessons learned

Dual Pickup basses & Personal mixer

ABOUT the GIG
MegaChurch - 16 full time staff --folks for band production....isolation rooms to mix monitors and mains.... 6 camera video etc

Personal mixer-----
The venue was run as tight as a Swiss watch .... I left my iem board in the car.... We sound checked practiced -- then at show time intensity changed - I had no control over "more me" I could have stealthed it and hidden it near the drummer



No more single pickup basses----
This was the "ah-ha" moment..... So we get done with the very legato ballad--- I had the low cranked .... Then there's a plan change --- over the iem, the producer says "winter wonderland - now"

What's the problem????

On a single pickup bass I boosted the low (3 band preamp) and played very light....

IF I would have been on a 2 pickup bass I could have rolled off the bridge pickup

So what's the problem???

We hit a rockin version of a tune next -- my bass is sending +15 db... This clips the dibox/board..... Sound guy dives for the fader --- and....effectively muted in the mix


----

The sound crew was expecting to get yelled at (their body language)..... Instead we talked it through

1-if I would have had a personal mixer ... I would have never knew they burried me--- I'm sure video crew was scrambling to keep me off camera as I had confused face--- with a personal mixer I would have never known the mix change - I wouldn't have disappeared in my iem

2-never occurred to me that "compensating" with the preamp changed the control room's mix

This made me think of something:

Let's say you have a system like Aviom or Movek and the electric guitarist has a few pedals. The engineer sets the input gain for the first pedal the guitarist is using, and the band members all set the guitar in their Aviom or whatever to a good level. Then the guitarist hits a different pedal and he's clipping the input. At this point, everyone reaches to turn the guitar down in their ears, including the guitarist, and the engineer turns down the gain, instead of the guitarist simply turning down his pedal to be at the same level as his first one.

However, in a situation where the guitarist can't adjust his own level in his ears: guitarist hits that second pedal, hears that it's significantly louder, and then does one of the only three things he can do: turn down guitar, turn down amp, or, hopefully, turn down the pedal.

That's my only thing against "more me" mixes.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

This made me think of something:

Let's say you have a system like Aviom or Movek and the electric guitarist has a few pedals. The engineer sets the input gain for the first pedal the guitarist is using, and the band members all set the guitar in their Aviom or whatever to a good level. Then the guitarist hits a different pedal and he's clipping the input. At this point, everyone reaches to turn the guitar down in their ears, including the guitarist, and the engineer turns down the gain, instead of the guitarist simply turning down his pedal to be at the same level as his first one.

However, in a situation where the guitarist can't adjust his own level in his ears: guitarist hits that second pedal, hears that it's significantly louder, and then does one of the only three things he can do: turn down guitar, turn down amp, or, hopefully, turn down the pedal.

That's my only thing against "more me" mixes.

King...

Im confused... in a "more me" solution... you hear your own set level.

the band mix may change... the personal levels stay at whatever you set them at.

Tim

[derrico1]

KingRazor's saying that "more me" mixes complicate the musicians' ability to blend into the mix.

Say I'm singing backing vocals. If I have a more-me mix, I can hear my own pitch better, but I can't accurately judge how well I'm blending with the main vocalist(s).

There are some valid reasons for more-me mixes (especially for singers). But you can tell a lot about instrumentalists from what they want in their IEM mixes.

[steve_rolfeca]

Ever since I switched from playing casuals with older, experienced pros to being a church musician, I've struggled with monitor mixes, whether wedge or IEM.

IME, amateur/volunteer musicians and sound people don't have the same control over levels. Instead of being a predictable playing field, stage and monitor mixes in church bands are a minefield. Levels on everything from keys, to guitarists' pedal boards, to self-conscious vocalists, bounce all over the map.

Having an amp on stage is only a partial solution- if I'm chasing levels in order to hear myself, I'm not doing anything to help the poor sap at the mixing board...

For me, the missing piece has turned out to be the Presonus StudioLive mixers, and QMix on my iPhone/iPad. No more struggling to hear, no need for a second gigbag to carry a mixer and all the other junk for my personal mixing setup, and less tension between myself and the rest of the team.

Doesn't help with bad FOH mixes, but at least I can consistently play with confidence, thanks to a secure, controllable IEM mix. If your band or venue is looking for a new board and can live with the 24-channel limitation, it's way simpler and less expensive than an Aviom system, or the Roland modular stuff.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Ever since I switched from playing casuals with older, experienced pros to being a church musician, I've struggled with monitor mixes, whether wedge or IEM.

IME, amateur/volunteer musicians and sound people don't have the same control over levels. Instead of being a predictable playing field, stage and monitor mixes in church bands are a minefield. Levels on everything from keys, to guitarists' pedal boards, to self-conscious vocalists, bounce all over the map.

Having an amp on stage is only a partial solution- if I'm chasing levels in order to hear myself, I'm not doing anything to help the poor sap at the mixing board...

For me, the missing piece has turned out to be the Presonus StudioLive mixers, and QMix on my iPhone/iPad. No more struggling to hear, no need for a second gigbag to carry a mixer and all the other junk for my personal mixing setup, and less tension between myself and the rest of the team.

Doesn't help with bad FOH mixes, but at least I can consistently play with confidence, thanks to a secure, controllable IEM mix. If your band or venue is looking for a new board and can live with the 24-channel limitation, it's way simpler and less expensive than an Aviom system, or the Roland modular stuff.

This is the reason I suggest people aclimate to mains+more me .... Least risk... Easiest consistent mix.... Easiest to consistently recreate (with different gear or staff)

[Rip Topaz]

I agree completely. Church playing is downright dangerous for IEM use. Too many hands on things that they aren't qualified to touch.

When I took that loud pop through the Aviom because someone tripped over my network cable, the damage is still there. That was last year.

The worst part is that the person that tripped over the cable had no business being in the place where he tripped.

And this kind of stuff happens too often. I'm totally sold on using IEMs, as long as (like already stated by someone else) I own and run ALL gear that goes into my ears, and am confident in the other players' knowledge and setup of their gear.

Nothing hurts worse than a loud blast of guitar right into your head because a pedal's volume was set wrong.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

King...

Im confused... in a "more me" solution... you hear your own set level.

the band mix may change... the personal levels stay at whatever you set them at.

Tim

And that's the point. If a guitarist hits a pedal that is way louder than the one he was just using, and instead of turning down the pedal he just turns down his channel in his ears, everyone else has to turn him down too in their ears. If he just adjusts the pedal, no one else has to adjust.