IEM TRICKS - From Email requests.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Please add any "better" value systems you come up with

I played a huge$$$ mega last week - they supplied audiotechnica- static city

Yeah I've looked around quite a bit and it's hard to beat the PSM for wireless in price/performance.

Our church's band leader wants each instrumentalist to have personal mixers. He isn't a fan of "mains + more me". Since we use Roland it makes sense to use the M48s but they're super expensive. I like the MyMix system from Movek. I think that system plus some PSMs would be a great system, but that setup would cost as much as the Roland one.

[MNAirHead]

Unfortunately - like the psm there aren't a ton of giggable and affordable personal mixer options out there

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The reason I keep banging on"mains+me" mix was magnified last Friday

1 hour to dial in everyone's mix--- when talking around afterward mains+me is what all the mixes ended up being

[KingRazor]

I'd prefer to have everyone on mains+me, or even having everyone on their own AUX and just have them mixed from FOH. But it's not my decision. The band leader wants personal mixers so that's what they're gonna get. So no IEMs for the guitar players and singers until we have the $12,000 or so to buy the personal mixers...

[jmoorewright]

Just wondering, but what's driving the big push to personal mixers? Is it just Shiny Object Syndrome, or is there a legitimate need?

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by jmoorewright

Just wondering, but what's driving the big push to personal mixers? Is it just Shiny Object Syndrome, or is there a legitimate need?

The band leader wants each musician to have personal control over their own mixes, so that they only hear what they need to hear at the level they need to hear it, and so they don't have to rely on the sound guy to change something every time they need it changed. This is something the team has wanted for a long time. I don't think it's really necessary but it would be very nice to have.

I can understand why. He used to use IEMs with our previous tech director mixing, and he got tired of levels frequently changing in his ears and an overall bad quality mix. He's actually been running without any monitor at all for over a year now.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by jmoorewright

Just wondering, but what's driving the big push to personal mixers? Is it just Shiny Object Syndrome, or is there a legitimate need?

No, there's a real need.

IMO, the whole thing is self-inflicted, but nonetheless, it's tough out there in monitorland. IEM's are starting to replace regular wedges for stage monitoring on small stages in some markets. For instance, the "silent stage" has become a big buzzword in houses of worship.

IEM's are a whole different bag on that scale, compared to the elaborate, expensive wireless systems you see on a big concert stage. Gear isn't the same quality or quantity, musicians aren't as skilled, there's usually no dedicated monitor engineer at side stage, and in smaller churches, the "sound guy" is usually an enthusiastic, untrained amateur at best.

As great as an IEM mix can be in the right circumstances, it can be a real nightmare when it's not. Frankly, when I used to do casuals in the 70's and '80's, the sound I was hearing on stage from the backline and a couple of vocal monitors, was streets ahead of what I'm typically getting on stage these days.

The Aviom, Roland and other networked personal monitor systems that have come out in the last few years, are an attempt to get around the limitations of trying to duplicate big concert monitor networks, on a smaller, less labour-intensive scale.

Personally, I prefer to play live off the floor with experienced players using small amps, and set a proper level on stage just by listening to each other. But I guess that's just my inner old fart talking...

[jmoorewright]

Makes sense, I can certainly see having control over your own mix would be preferable to giving over to someone else.

I've never done anything other than "more-me" with IEMs, and it worked pretty well with just a dedicated monitor send; I think I'd like to control my own mix, but wonder if I'd make things better or worse, plus I'm not sure I'd touch it much once it was set.

I wonder even more about bandmates who really don't have less interest in controlling their mix, and maybe less skill in doing so. How much training is required for musicians in general to make effective use of these personal mixer setups?

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by jmoorewright

Just wondering, but what's driving the big push to personal mixers? Is it just Shiny Object Syndrome, or is there a legitimate need?

Much of this is my fault.

I've done countless gigs... different scenario... different gear... different people.

the "more me" mixers (Personal mixers) allow you not to be the "victim" of the sound... there are tons of scenarios where you get "burried" in the mix.

Having a personal mixer allows you to at least have a quick and easy way to blend yourself with the supplied mix.

It allows you a quick/easy way to turn things up or down... you can turn your personal instrument up without interacting with the board or staff...

When running sound... the large majority of the requested mixes end up being very close to mains + more me (sometimes a click)

When getting started it's really tough to guage if the mix is right... having 3 knobs in front of you allows a bit of on the fly adjustment.

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Some wireless units have a few channels of pass through... most want you to buy a companion personal mixer....

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Hard connect/wire it to your iem feed

Set up a channel with full-spectrum classical music

Set the classical channel to its highest non-clipping setting

Now have someone mute the channel

Go back to your iem point (DO NOT put them on)

Turn down (not off your limiter)

Unmute the loud classical music- record the db level

Now turn the limiter back on

Go back to your iem point (DO NOT put them on) - record the db level

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There are various ways limiters treat abnormal spikes .... Some mute everything.... Some distort.... Some drop the level... Some are broken

Don't trust/play/test with your ears

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For oscilliscopes.... Old hp are cheap... Many higher end interfaces have them built in (motu cuemix etc)

For RTA.... You can get 4 space TOA w/mic for about $10 used.... There are free iPod apps... Etc

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For permanent installations I ALWAYS pop $10 and put in a calibrated mic/RTA ..... (Especially for worship) --- why trust your ears???

And what dB level do you recommend?

I know OSHA guidelines but 90dBA (to throw out an example) in open air is not the same as 90dBA through IEMs...

[MNAirHead]

For limiter...

The issue is that there are various setups on various mfg/model.

I start them very "hard" and work backward to something I can deal with.... the specifics depend on the exact unit.

[S6I6X]

My bands going to be doing our first bigger tour in a couple months and since this time around I am going completely direct I wanted to start using IEMs. I have been doing research and I want to setup a rack for the IEM receivers but I don't understand exactly how you are getting the main feed and creating the "more me mix". My guitar player is convinced that the only way that is worth it is to get a mixer that can create 5 individual mixes for everyone. The system I have some up with so far in my head has me using the Rolls PM351 in the rack but then if I ever needed to keep it by the board then we would lose control of our mix. What kinds of connections are pretty much guaranteed to be able to get on the stage for that?

Sorry, I have never run sound or really messed with a mixer. My guitar player also thinks he should just get some molded IEMs and route the DI from his head into that and adjust that to the ambient stage sounds. I want to just do it right now so we have time to practice with them before tour and sound our best.

[MNAirHead]

Thanks for moving your post to this thread ....

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Main Feed.....
Really depends on the venue, gear, staffing, cabling, connectors etc

Sometimes it's an aux send.... Sometimes a snake.... Sometimes a wedge... Maybe a main.... Rt side of a main out... Possibly a speaker with a di box to buffer the signal

It's always prudent to have multiple options including cabling, connectors etc

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"More me"
When I suggest this its for individual users - not a single remote rack.... Shure makes rack mount pass through mixers --- if a visiting player... A large rack may be unwelcome


Pass through/splitting/recording mixer
Your guitarist is technically correct... This is how road acts do it...

Now comes the tricky part.... They'll normally travel with their own snake digital mixer and a dedicated pro just for monitors---- mains crew are commonly local

Bands like this normally have an extensive rider/digragm that's part of the contract

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Rolls pm351 (for full band)
I'm a fan of this for individuals without a dedicated iem engineer

The issue comes with 5 mixes and ~ 20 inputs.. Chances are you're going to want iPhone/ipad control --- to do this you may really be talking a presonus board wireless point and router... Many road acts use recording interfaces (motu etc)

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"then we would lose control of our mix."

This is a major complaint when you show up with just wireless units (forgetting mixers, cabling, staff, digragm)
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"What kinds of connections are pretty much guaranteed to be able to get on the stage for that?"

Guaranteed... Good question

Who owns the gear....who is paying the staff... There are "guaranteed" connecting points.... Good sound guys will not let you touch them

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"Sorry, I have never run sound or really messed with a mixer. "

Opinion--- you need some pro help.... It took me about a year of research to figure out a method that would work 90% of the time.... Not something I'd blindly go on the road with

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"My guitar player also thinks he should just get some molded IEMs and route the DI from his head into that and adjust that to the ambient stage sounds. "

Ambient stage sounds change depending on room and mic quality/placement

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"I want to just do it right now so we have time to practice with them before tour and sound our best."

Good plan


-------your questions-----
1-How much exactly do you have to spend

2-do you have a dedicated paid staff person to manage this

3-how much control do you have (soundcheck time, venue control, number of acts)

4-how many channels and individual mixes do you expect

5-is there anyone in your band that could quickly install and diagnose a pa

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Your guitarist is technically correct... This is how road acts do it...

Now comes the tricky part.... They'll normally travel with their own snake digital mixer and a dedicated pro just for monitors---- mains crew are commonly local

Bands like this normally have an extensive rider/digragm that's part of the contract

----------

"What kinds of connections are pretty much guaranteed to be able to get on the stage for that?"

Guaranteed... Good question

Who owns the gear....who is paying the staff... There are "guaranteed" connecting points.... Good sound guys will not let you touch them

-------your questions-----
1-How much exactly do you have to spend

2-do you have a dedicated paid staff person to manage this

3-how much control do you have (soundcheck time, venue control, number of acts)

4-how many channels and individual mixes do you expect

5-is there anyone in your band that could quickly install and diagnose a pa

All good points.

Don't know what kind of tour you're going out on, but my thoughts based on your situation:
- your first big tour is going to be a whirlwind
- as tour newbies, you likely won't get a ton of respect
- sound check will usually be anywhere from hectic to non-existent

I would say concentrate on staying loose, getting the rest you need, and be ready for whatever comes. Now is not the best time to be taking on major new technological problems.

Where is the promoter/tour management in all of this? Rather than trying to decide what you want to take with you, find out what they are ready to support.

I used to do tech support and stage management for local festivals and concerts, and the guys who gave the best shows were the ones who communicated well and early, and asked the best questions. Assuming that you'll be able to roll into every venue with a rack of extra stage connections and get cooperation is a big mistake, UNLESS you talk it through with all the stakeholders, well in advance.

[S6I6X]

Thanks for the replies. Basically, I was trying to look into full/good setups so that I know a bit about it and whatever I get I can expand upon later. For now, I just need to make sure I can hear myself properly.
Do you think taking an output from my DI and routing it into non-molded IEMs and using the bleed for everything besides me would suffice for now or should I try to set up something better?

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by S6I6X

... For now, I just need to make sure I can hear myself properly.
Do you think taking an output from my DI and routing it into non-molded IEMs and using the bleed for everything besides me would suffice for now or should I try to set up something better?

Something better. Half-decent IEM's like my Shure SE425's will give you about 20-25dB isolation. You'll likely feel too disconnected from the rest of the band, and decided to run one ear in/one ear out. You won't hear your bass well with only one IEM and no backline amp, so you'll turn up, and that's a recipe for hearing damage.

The minimum I would go out with, is:
- your IEM's
- either a PZM mic, or an SM57 on a desktop stand
- a long XLR cable
- a Rolls box

The mic could be used to take an ambient feed, tap off a little FOH, or even just grab some bleed from the stage sound to mix with the "more of me" from your DI.

But like I already said, my first step would be to talk to the tour organizer and/or other bands. That way, you might be able to tap into what someone else is bringing, and avoid over-buying.

I would also spring for at least a good two-element IEM, like the SE425's. The extra clarity is well worth the extra $50-$100.

[S6I6X]

Taking a mic for room sounds and all of that just seems to be too much work for what it's worth. If I can't get enough of the room from having non-molded IEMs or tapping off of the board then I'll just wait until we all spring for a full system.
I would still like to maximize the chances of pulling something from FOH to blend my own bass with.

To clearly answer the questions from before.
1-How much exactly do you have to spend
Not really an issue. We don't have all of the money in the world but would rather save up for what's necessary.
2-do you have a dedicated paid staff person to manage this
No.
3-how much control do you have (soundcheck time, venue control, number of acts)
Two act's and we are direct support for the headliners but it's only a 25 min set so it's not a lot of time to be messing with stuff.
4-how many channels and individual mixes do you expect
At this point just mine would be fine.
5-is there anyone in your band that could quickly install and diagnose a pa
Yes but we don't want to get that into it at this time.

[MNAirHead]

S616....
Sounds like wedges will be more successful in your case

[musicman7722]

My band uses a 16 channel poor mans splitter snake. We plug into that and it goes to the foh snake and to our digital mixer. I was using a presonus 16.0.2 but have moved to a mackie 1608. Each user has their own aux mix which there are 6. And this is saved so auto comes up when I load the scene. It is possible foe each user to adjust their aux mix in real time via an iPad. This is a fast setup and flexible. We also use it for rehearsals. Every place we have used it with a house foh setup they have allowed us to use our snake and they have no other connections to deal with for channel adjustment.

Snake is around $200 and mixer and iPad is around $1400. Each user can choose their own item connection. Wired or wireless and their own buds.

Chris

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by musicman7722

My band uses a 16 channel poor mans splitter snake. We plug into that and it goes to the foh snake and to our digital mixer. I was using a presonus 16.0.2 but have moved to a mackie 1608. Each user has their own aux mix which there are 6. And this is saved so auto comes up when I load the scene. It is possible foe each user to adjust their aux mix in real time via an iPad. This is a fast setup and flexible. We also use it for rehearsals. Every place we have used it with a house foh setup they have allowed us to use our snake and they have no other connections to deal with for channel adjustment.

Snake is around $200 and mixer and iPad is around $1400. Each user can choose their own item connection. Wired or wireless and their own buds.

Chris

Guessing this may be my direction

[Rip Topaz]

You have a link for the snake? I'd be interested in checking out some "splitter snakes".