IEMs vs. wedges

[loend68]

I was talking with some people the other day and they swear that having half the band on IEMs and the other half on wedges keeps the band from being tight. They claim the guys on wedges aren't as tight because they're subject to the room echoes, etc. For reference it's the bass and drums on wedges and the guitar player singer on IEMs (wireless).

Thoughts?

[steveksux]

Full of crap.

The delay from the distance to the wedges vs the IEMs is insignificant.

You're still prone to feedback with anyone stuck on monitors, and that keeps the vocals buried in the wedges most of the time, as the vocals are limited in volume by feedback, and guitar players are limited in volume only by their vastly overpowered amplifiers/stacks. So vocals are going to be better mostly when everyone is on iems. At least if the iems are on a seperate mix, you can get the vocals up enough to work right in the IEMs and the wedge guys will sound like Lou Ferrigno.

Having said that, if you're in a crappy room where the wedges are useless because of room echoes, they are right. Just played a gig in a loading dock, and the monitors were useless, just a mush of sound, couldn't hear anything. I was able to hear better with IEMs, but didn't have a good mix to work with, and everyone suffered as a result.

That still doesn't mean a mix of iems and wedges make you not tight. Makes it sound like you'll be fine if everyone is on IEMs or everyone is on wedges. Not true. The problem is crappy rooms where wedges don't work well will make you not tight when you're using wedges.

Randy

[jad]

Okay, I'll bite. There have been many tight bands throughout the ages that used wedges. Plenty today use IEM. These are just the tools of the trade. It's all about how you use them, and personal preference.

[loend68]

They were saying it was the mix of IEMs and wedges because they're getting the signal without any delay.
They actually said that the drummer and I were playing behind the beat. Funny I thought that they were supposed to be following us?

[Gadgetjunky]

I say no. There is not any delay 6' from monitor. I've used IEM/Wedges, Wedges only, and IEM only and I like the IEM/Wedges the best. Where IEM's really help is if you go off stage on a wireless walkabout. There you will get delay from the PA and the IEM's but the IEM's keep you on track.

[loend68]

Originally Posted by steveksux

Full of crap.


That still doesn't mean a mix of iems and wedges make you not tight. Makes it sound like you'll be fine if everyone is on IEMs or everyone is on wedges. Not true. The problem is crappy rooms where wedges don't work well will make you not tight when you're using wedges.

Randy

Isn't the worst case in a bad room that the wedge guys have trouble hearing vocals? I mean the bass and drums are hearing each other live, 6ft apart.

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by Gadgetjunky

I say no. There is not any delay 6' from monitor.

I would have to disagree with you. I attended a pro audio seminar with a well-known audio engineer, and part of the topic was moving band members away from wedges to IEMs. He pointed out that part of the reason some people are uncomfortable with IEMs is the milliseconds' worth of delay that guitarists and vocalists (and some other musicians) are used to hearing from their rigs and monitors, and taught us how to compensate for it with a digital board by inserting 5ms (he advised 1 millisecond per foot they were usually away from their rig) or so delay in the guitar/vocalist/whomever IEM mix.

The small delay from a wedge a few feet away isn't noticeable musically, but apparently 1ms/ft is enough for some musicians to notice subconsciously; the response of their instrument or voice suddenly seems more immediate, and makes them uncomfortable even if they can't say why.

He also gave us great advice on how to set up communications via talkback mics on stage, so the feeling of isolation from each other and the audience was lessened. Great seminar.

[stingraysvt]

I'd say I'm tighter with the wedge, but vocals can't be beat with IEM's

Not to mention not having to load in your wedge and accompanying amp...

If I've played with a group for a while and was comfortable with the changes, etc... ears are just the best.

I don't really care for them with just one offs, and fill in work, I like to have 100% of my wits about me...

[knarleybass]

hocus pockus i declare!

[stingraysvt]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

I would have to disagree with you. I attended a pro audio seminar with a well-known audio engineer, and part of the topic was moving band members away from wedges to IEMs. He pointed out that part of the reason some people are uncomfortable with IEMs is the milliseconds' worth of delay that guitarists and vocalists (and some other musicians) are used to hearing from their rigs and monitors, and taught us how to compensate for it with a digital board by inserting 5ms (he advised 1 millisecond per foot they were usually away from their rig) or so delay in the guitar/vocalist/whomever IEM mix.

The small delay from a wedge a few feet away isn't noticeable musically, but apparently 1ms/ft is enough for some musicians to notice subconsciously; the response of their instrument or voice suddenly seems more immediate, and makes them uncomfortable even if they can't say why.

He also gave us great advice on how to set up communications via talkback mics on stage, so the feeling of isolation from each other and the audience was lessened. Great seminar.

this +1

What was the placement of the live mics?

I've never used them when I play, but we do sound for national act after act that uses 2 for crowd mic'ing L&R...

[HolmeBass]

We play with a mix and it hasn't changed out level of tightness at all. In fact we use a few different drummers, and one guy has IEMs and the other don't and neither I nor anyone else has noticed a difference- other than the inherent difference in the different guys' styles.

[loend68]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

I would have to disagree with you. I attended a pro audio seminar with a well-known audio engineer, and part of the topic was moving band members away from wedges to IEMs. He pointed out that part of the reason some people are uncomfortable with IEMs is the milliseconds' worth of delay that guitarists and vocalists (and some other musicians) are used to hearing from their rigs and monitors, and taught us how to compensate for it with a digital board by inserting 5ms (he advised 1 millisecond per foot they were usually away from their rig) or so delay in the guitar/vocalist/whomever IEM mix.

The small delay from a wedge a few feet away isn't noticeable musically, but apparently 1ms/ft is enough for some musicians to notice subconsciously; the response of their instrument or voice suddenly seems more immediate, and makes them uncomfortable even if they can't say why.

He also gave us great advice on how to set up communications via talkback mics on stage, so the feeling of isolation from each other and the audience was lessened. Great seminar.

Let me add this to the mix. The guitar player side fires his amp and leaves his IEM out on that side so he can hear his amp and only uses the other one, for vocals.

I still don't see how the drummer and the bass player can be behind the beat when they're the ones driving the bus. I will add that there's a constant tempo issue because they want to play things way too fast. I think maybe they were playing ahead to speed things up...

[Gadgetjunky]

Ok, Walterbush, you got me. Technically there is delay in everything. I cannot tell any NOTICABLE delay when I have IEM's and a wedge. Definately not enought to throw off the beat. But, we have actaully not set up wedges in a long time, the IEM's are really all you need. The benefit from getting rid of the wedges isn't so much an echo/delay but bringing down the stage level.

I think the reason a band may be tighter with IEM's is becuase you can hear everything better and may have a click running. When I had the IEM and the wedge, my IEM was giving me a stronger mix and the wedge is just adding some fill. So this is a super technical issue that has too many variables to just have a yes or no anwser IMO.

[loend68]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

We play with a mix and it hasn't changed out level of tightness at all. In fact we use a few different drummers, and one guy has IEMs and the other don't and neither I nor anyone else has noticed a difference- other than the inherent difference in the different guys' styles.

This has been my experience as well. I have done tons of sub gigs with the bigger cover bands in the area and had no issue whatsoever.

Thanks for all the input.

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by loend68

Let me add this to the mix. The guitar player side fires his amp and leaves his IEM out on that side so he can hear his amp and only uses the other one, for vocals.

I still don't see how the drummer and the bass player can be behind the beat when they're the ones driving the bus. I will add that there's a constant tempo issue because they want to play things way too fast. I think maybe they were playing ahead to speed things up...

That's a great way for your guitarists to damage his hearing, depending on the stage volume of course. Part of the same seminar was about NOT doing that, because the tendency is to turn up the IEM to compensate, which is akin to cranking earbuds to damaging levels. His mileage may vary.

What was the placement of the live mics?

He proposed a couple of solutions. The first was pointing shotgun mics at the audience, sent only to the monitor mixes. Again, this was a pro audio seminar put on by Doug Gould, who's used to working with larger acts. He did mention that for smaller churches (it was a worship-based seminar) that even dynamics help, as long as they're roughly at the same level as the average audience/congregation member's mouth. Look at U2 and Rush's most recent live videos; you can see mics there just for that purpose though Rush used condensors to record audience noise.

For interband communications, he recommended a condensor set up on stage. It helps let some stage volume through, and gives band members a clearer way to communicate. As an alternative, some IEM packs allow for an auxillary input. Band members run a lavalier through this and voila! wireless communication from wherever you're standing, as well as picking up some audience noise and stage ambience.

Please note, I've had limited experience actually putting these techniques into place. I'm just passing along what a wiser, more experienced head told me. We HAVE had good experiences with some of the other techniques he mentioned, like running the drummer's own drums hotter in his IEMs to tame an overly aggressive basher. The key was to slowly ramp it up, if he bursts his eardrums with the first drum hit, he's likely to demand that his own drums be taken down significantly in the mix.

[loend68]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

That's a great way for your guitarists to damage his hearing, depending on the stage volume of course. Part of the same seminar was about NOT doing that, because the tendency is to turn up the IEM to compensate, which is akin to cranking earbuds to damaging levels. His mileage may vary.

I have heard that and was going to mention it to him to be careful. My point in mentioning that is you've taken the him out of the mix as being full on IEM's because he's basically getting the best of both worlds.

Like I said before, I really think it is their need to rush songs tempo-wise and pulling ahead of the beat. I've even heard the singer purposely sing ahead of the beat (way ahead) to try to get the drummer to go faster. So I think that is the issue here...

[Gadgetjunky]

Great info on the ambient sound WalterBush, that totally is the biggest issue with me and having both IEM's in. The lavalier is a great idea, my bodypack has a line in but I don't think it mixes

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by loend68

They were saying it was the mix of IEMs and wedges because they're getting the signal without any delay.

Not that I believe any of this, but for the sake of argument, who was on wedges, who was on IEMs? The wedge guys could theoretically be behind if they were ridiculously far away from the monitors. Similar to trying to play with a wireless if you get too far from stage, the sound propagation delay of 50-100 ft makes it difficult to sync up.

But there's no appreciable delay from being a few feet from the wedges.

They actually said that the drummer and I were playing behind the beat. Funny I thought that they were supposed to be following us?

Yeah, no kidding. And that really enhances my confidence in their opinions on iem/wedge mix issues... lol. It couldn't be that the guitars were rushing??? That's almost as rare as guitarists playing too loud. Its nearly unheard of! rofl...

Randy

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by loend68

Isn't the worst case in a bad room that the wedge guys have trouble hearing vocals? I mean the bass and drums are hearing each other live, 6ft apart.

Absolutely, vocals are the main problem with wedges. Actually the problem is the musicians, not the vocals.... The guys that are not singing turn up to hear themselves clearly over the vocals. Until they start singing and start bitching they need more vocals in the wedges..

I was just talking about the tightness issue.


Randy

[loend68]

Originally Posted by steveksux

Yeah, no kidding. And that really enhances my confidence in their opinions on iem/wedge mix issues... lol. It couldn't be that the guitars were rushing??? That's almost as rare as guitarists playing too loud. Its nearly unheard of! rofl...

Randy

LOL!!!