Keyboards need stereo inputs to board

**tbar0000** · #1 06-03-2009, 08:59 AM

I'm a bassist who also (like many other bassists) inherits PA duties. The Keys player in one of my bands insists on running all 3 keyboards stereo into the PA. All other keyboardists I've played with only used a single output to feed the PA. He is not using amps, only the PA with his own monitor mix. When he did use amplifiers- he 'd bring 2, and run stereo. We convinced him to drop the amps, and use the PA to decrease our stage footprint. The PA is only 16 channel and he's using 6 for just his instruments alone. I say stereo won't be noticable in a club/bar environment with 7 members all playing/singing. He insists that the sound is unacceptable in mono. Help me convince him that this is unnecessary? Or am I wrong here?

rakirksey · #2 06-03-2009, 09:07 AM

You could just tell him to bring his own small mixer and then give a single stereo signal of all of his keyboards.

I did know a keyboard player that insisted on stereo, but he only had one board.

**tbar0000** · #3 06-03-2009, 09:35 AM

Yeah- I tried that too- Had a small line mixer feeding (again...stereo) to the main board- but having to deal with his uneven levels (from patch to patch) on 2 mixers made my job worse. I'd rather just convince him that stereo is unnecessary.

JustDavid · #4 06-03-2009, 09:38 AM

If they need it, they need it. But let Keys price then pay for upgrading the board & snake from 16 to 24 channels. & then price a 'pony mixer' to mix themselves down to 2 channels. See what fiscal reality does to their "need".

I'd even debate the 'need' for 2 channels versus 1: with 7 members & lots of vocals you are probably strongly editing for channels already. The rest of the band likely already knows if Keys 'need' stereo or not.

JustDavid · #5 06-03-2009, 09:43 AM

Needs 6 channels, patch levels erratic, & has someone else covering up for this???

I'd call for a band meeting on this. I'd strive to get him down to one channel, possibly 2, & have him either fix his own level-erraticity in the patches or on his sub-mixer. Or for them to agree that the bass line can dumb-down or drop out while you are focussing on the board to fix his problem.

**tbar0000** · #6 06-03-2009, 09:52 AM

Yes, the inevitable bass drop outs are a problem when having to work the board- anoying enough dealing with vocal tweeks when playing w/o a soundcheck with too loud a stage volume (frequently the case). You're right...I shouldn't need to adjust the keys, but I'll set the levels initially, then a different patch will require me to lower them again- quite annoying.

Does everyone agree that there is no noticable difference stereo to mono in this environment?

JustDavid · #7 06-03-2009, 10:17 AM

Maybe his patches need stereo, maybe not. A real swirly Leslie patch might strongly benefit, while a Rhodes patch has no need. My remote estimation of if Stereo actually is required would increase if Keys have their level under control.

I feel for you, on the level variations. I also did Bass+Sound before we brought in a Soundperson: Lead Singer's boyfriend who was always there anyway & does have a decent ear (that can go wrong more often than it goes right, but it's working out very well). I've been blamed for variations in sound levels caused by someone else & it came down to having to take a very hard line: players also have responsibility for their levels. You didn't blame the Soundperson when you were off-key & you now don't blame the Spundperson when you are off-level. The easiest way to haul a car out of a ditch is to not drive into a ditch in the first place. Your bass playing suffers, the band's sound thereby suffers, the band has added costs of going to 24 channels, hiring a Soundperson, buying a snake . . . many reasons & possibilities that get solved by Keys getting their poop in a group.

(Pardon the rant: left it in in case there's something you can use in your own situation).

T-Bird · #8 06-06-2009, 07:44 AM

Hi.

First of all, in a rock club or similar, where the music is more or less background entertainment, running things in stereo only muddies the overall sound and makes everyones life more miserable, Both the audiences and the performers.

A slave mixer for the keyboardist would be my choice. Also, like said earlier: THE KEYBOARDIST IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SIGNAL LEVELS.

That holds true with the sound persons too. If anyone thinks that the different sounds from any instrument can be varying greatly in levels are in for a heap of surprize. The different keys (sets) & different patches in KBDs and E-drums have to be in the same level. Clean, dirty, FXd guitars, bass, vocals (if controlled by the singer) all have to be constant too. No way around it.

If they aren't, the strongest level will be in balance and audible, others, well... You get the picture. And while I agree that the sound persons job is to balance everything, that doesn't mean several times for every instrument in every tune. Unless it's top dollar paying gig. Even then two hands will be able to handle a limited amount of channels.

Stop being the keyboardists slave and concentrate on the overall sound.

Regards
Sam

GregShadoan · #9 06-06-2009, 03:44 PM

What I would do, is recommend a small mini mixer for all his 6 lines in. 2 lines out to the pa. Insert a compressor accross those 2 channels, with the threshold set to the first "too loud" patch, and bury the comp ratio to infinite limit hehe. That way you play bass, set his levels once, and let him dice out his own problems.
Nothing worse than having to be the bassist, and then change over to sound guy in the middle of a good tune (for me). In fact I won't do it. Even though everyone knows I do sound for a living, when I play in a band, im a nazi about NOT being the sound guy too. I will set the levels and mix the band, then go get my bass off its stand and thats it. Now I am the bassist. If thats not good enough, then they need to hire a sound person. The only exception is if some terrible feedback starts (singer decides the monitor is a mic cleaning device) and I will grab the faders and pull them down. Protect my hearing. After 40 years of doing them both, Im done. Its either one or the other for me :-)

**tbar0000** · #10 06-06-2009, 04:32 PM

Use of the compressor as a limiter is some good advice- I'll try that.

jmorbita · #11 06-07-2009, 07:54 PM

Our keyboard player uses this: (mbox)
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...956&langid=100

he's not only playing keyboards but also using his laptop for programming sequences.

Through the mbox he sends a stereo signal to the pa and also headphones to the drummer who plays with a "click".
He takes a lot of time mixing everything in his laptop so that his final output is constant throughout the show. Just like the guitar player sets the output of his different effects and i do mine.

He programs lots of stuff in stereo and the final product we think is really great. In some small places, though, it's debatable wether you can actually hear the stereo, if the pa speakers are too close together, etc.

**tbar0000** · #12 06-08-2009, 09:24 AM

The guitar player effects output is a whole nother issue- IMHO, too many guitarists use the effects pedals gain control to amplify their signal rather than adjust to get volume levels constant with pedals on/off. It seems they like to use a particular pedal to change their sound for say, a solo, and boost the gain for a volume boost all with one pedal push- This is fine, but then they kick the same pedal on for another song and situation and remain louder. Everyone else naturally raises their volume to compensate. You would think people playing many, many years would get a handle on this- but I find it over and over, from people of all experience levels. Uncontrolable stage volume is a big pet peeve of mine.
Little things like this, and the different volume of keyboard patches contribute to the escalating stage volume issue most bands deal with- problem is then the vocals cant be heard, the PA gets turned up, the mics pick up the loud stage volume from the amps, and the vocals aren't heard (again). Then comes feedback! AAarggghhh! I just want to play bass!

ga_edwards · #13 06-08-2009, 10:47 AM

I completely agree on all sentiments so far so I too would argue the requirement for stereo too in small venues. You can advise him that the sound will be different on one side of the room to the other. When I was playing in a duo with backing tracks, we were shopping for a small PA with stereo as a requirement. The salesman made as realise that perhaps stereo is the way to go for the afore mentioned reason. He also saved us a lot of money!

I would suggest if he still persists that he invest in his own mini mixer so that he is in control of his own mix and levels rather that leaving it to you sort out.

I remember a sound guy who had a t-shirt that read 'my rig, my rules' You may want to quote that to him. Or, if he insists on having 6 channels that all need carefully mixing along wih everything else, suggest that he take over mixing duties instead and see how easy it is.

It does amaze me the number of bassists who are the soundguy. It does seem to be the bassist who frequently has the greater musical and understanding of live sound, but unfortunately it's also the bassist (ok, and drummer) who are normally playing throughout every tune without break. Makes mixing very difficult! Another reason why the keyboardist should mix

JackANSI · #14 06-08-2009, 01:08 PM

I'm with the people who suggested the keyboardist get his own mini mixer to even his levels and send you one stereo set.

Just make sure that he knows what is the proper level you want sent to you and sticks to it. But I'd bet money that his overall level creeps up quite a bit in the course of the show.

DWBass · #15 06-08-2009, 03:11 PM

IME, Keyboardists with multiple boards and drummers with full mic setups have their own submixer and run stereo lines to the PA. If his patches volumes are uneven from patch to patch, it makes no difference whether it's in stereo or mono. He needs to go in and edit his patches for volume consistency like a 'pro' usually does!

rob2966 · #16 06-08-2009, 06:59 PM

Get him to switch the 3 keyboards to a one uber-keyboard (PC3x, etc). Then he can run 1 stereo pair.

Later
Rob

**tbar0000** · #17 06-09-2009, 05:39 AM

Actually he needs multiple keys to pull off the various duties he has- I'll give him that. We play continuous sets with virtually no breaks between songs to keep em dancing. He plays (combinations -simultaneously) piano/organ/horn/synth parts and Sax to cut down on our total number of bandmembers - He's a very useful guy to have around. Bars only fit smaller bands, and only pay so much. Splitting it fewer ways is the only way to make any coin.

ga_edwards · #18 06-09-2009, 06:07 PM

Really? Jordan Rudess of Dream Theater seems to do quite well with one keyboard, and he's a keyboard god! With deft programming and set planning it prob can all be done on one, if it's a good one and built for it.

DWBass · #19 06-09-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

Really? Jordan Rudess of Dream Theater seems to do quite well with one keyboard, and he's a keyboard god! With deft programming and set planning it prob can all be done on one, if it's a good one and built for it.

Exactly. 1 or 2 boards with splits programmed is king but I guess some folks are either lazy about programming or still live in the old model of having 'stacks o' synths' like EL&P!

JansenW · #20 06-09-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbar0000

Yeah- I tried that too- Had a small line mixer feeding (again...stereo) to the main board- but having to deal with his uneven levels (from patch to patch) on 2 mixers made my job worse. I'd rather just convince him that stereo is unnecessary.

Have the keyboardist buy cables to run to the location of the main board. Place the small line mixer next to the main board.