Large stages - no chemistry

[Chris K]

I am mostly a small to medium venue player - and happy about that - , but every once in a while I get to play on large open air stages. You know the drill: layer of 18' on the floor in front of the stage, monstrous tweeters etc., Like yesterday afternoon. People from the audience said the overall sound was good. Could hear myself playing and shape my own sound very well, using my own rig both as EQ and monitor.

The rest of the band I heard well enough to stay on track, but not to keep in touch. So we were just getting everything out in a decent, standard way, but there was no 'play', no 'chemistry', no musical interactivity.

Question: is this something to get just used to?

We talked to the soundguys of course, and they said we should be happy because with the equipment they had, they did what they could.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Chris K

I am mostly a small to medium venue player - and happy about that - , but every once in a while I get to play on large open air stages. You know the drill: layer of 18' on the floor in front of the stage, monstrous tweeters etc., Like yesterday afternoon. People from the audience said the overall sound was good. Could hear myself playing and shape my own sound very well, using my own rig both as EQ and monitor.

The rest of the band I heard well enough to stay on track, but not to keep in touch. So we were just getting everything out in a decent, standard way, but there was no 'play', no 'chemistry', no musical interactivity.

Question: is this something to get just used to?

We talked to the soundguys of course, and they said we should be happy because with the equipment they had, they did what they could.

Large stage changes things for sure.

My band played a very large stage a few weeks ago. We were having a little trouble connecting. I think it's something you eventually adjust to given the chance, but the rate at which we play those size stages, we'll probably never adjust and just have get by as well as we can when those opportunities arise.

[JimmyM]

sometimes you're stuck with being spread out and you just do the best you can. you can tighten yourselves up and set up closer together sometimes, too. or you can run those you can't hear in your monitor. not ideal but better than not hearing them.

one thing that helps is not running excessive stage volume. on large stages, the instinct is to turn way up so everyone on the stage can hear you, especially if you're outside, but i've found that works against you as easily as for you.

[FunkMetalBass]

The bigger the stage, the more you should move around and interact with the audience. Always look over at the other guys on stage for cues or just to smile and make sure they're having a good time. Don't be afraid to run over and crowd around one guy, even if he's not center stage.

[countrybass007]

Large outdoor stages totally open in the back are the worst. We just sort of roam the stage at those type of shows, to make the stage seem a bit more like the usual crammed together bar situation, and keep us all interacting.

[5StringBlues]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

sometimes you're stuck with being spread out and you just do the best you can. you can tighten yourselves up and set up closer together sometimes, too. or you can run those you can't hear in your monitor. not ideal but better than not hearing them.

one thing that helps is not running excessive stage volume. on large stages, the instinct is to turn way up so everyone on the stage can hear you, especially if you're outside, but i've found that works against you as easily as for you.

+ 1 on all of the above.



Big stages are easier to deal with if you can hear everybody on the stage.This means YOU have to request bass drum,snare,keys,guitars,vocals,or anything else you need to hear.

Don't expect the sound guys to have it all there automatically.YOU have to request it or you'll do without.

This is one thing that bugs me about the drummer in my main band.He always waits till after the first or second song is over to realize he cant hear the guitar or keys in his monitor...................

[codeinedreams]

I find that I have to periodically take a walk over to the drummer if I physically can if the stage isn't too narrow (seems like a long walk compared to the close quarters of the practice space) to make sure we're in sync and to reinstate or maintain that connection, and the same with the guitarist. or at least face each other and have eye contact at times. I have to make a point to give the band members attention just as much as the audience. it's more of an effort to interact with the band when you're isolated way over in a corner. I watched a video of me taken from stage right (my side) where the drummer was way over on the other side, and I noticed that we were slightly off, not 100% locked in. I wouldn't have noticed that while playing because he was so far away, but watching the video helped me to focus more on fixing that (I know that's not exactly what you're talking about, but that was my problem at the time at that particular show).

[5StringBlues]

^ If you are not close to the drummer,getting some bass drum in your monitor is a must.


Otherwise you'll be playing to the bass drum coming from the FOH speakers. Or wont be hearing much bass drum at all.

[codeinedreams]

definitely. you don't always get what you want from some of those pesky soundmen, so I have to take matters into my own hands sometimes

[Chris K]

My drummer and I always are next to each other and we're always ok together, so groove isn't the problem. Yesterday I could hear the vocals well, guitars and keys so&so. But I had no idea of balance whatsoever.

For me the real problem is that I can't hear how my bass works in the mix. Like I said, I'm not used to it, and my biggest concern is to be too LOUD.

[5StringBlues]

^ Ok,I get where you're coming from a bit better now.

IMHO,if the stage had monitors for all the members of your band,they should ask to have bass in the monitors. This makes it so that your amp is pretty much just a monitor for yourself and you wont have to push it very much.

I usually find that the drummer's monitor has so much low end bass in it that I usually end up cutting low end bass and boosting mids and hi-mids for clarity.

In general tho,on an outdoor show,it wont be too loud unless you think it's too loud.Or if the FOH soundman says your rig's stage volume is being heard louder than the mains.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by 5StringBlues

^ Ok,I get where you're coming from a bit better now.

IMHO,if the stage had monitors for all the members of your band,they should ask to have bass in the monitors. This makes it so that your amp is pretty much just a monitor for yourself and you wont have to push it very much..

We all had monitors. Plus my own amp. I could hear myself play pretty well.

I usually find that the drummer's monitor has so much low end bass in it that I usually end up cutting low end bass and boosting mids and hi-mids for clarity..

Before the show our soundman asked me to to just that and I followed orders. Very sound advice

In general tho,on an outdoor show,it wont be too loud unless you think it's too loud.Or if the FOH soundman says your rig's stage volume is being heard louder than the mains.

After my band, another band was playing. I stood in front of the stage, listening - wearing earplugs you bet. It was sooooooooooooo loud... up to a level of irresponsability I would say. Someone next to me yelled in my ear: you weren't that loud and you sounded much better. The point is: if only I had been able to experience that while on stage...

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by Chris K

...
The point is: if only I had been able to experience that while on stage...

Except that you can't. You can't hear what's going on FOH while you're on stage - never can, never will. You can't hear what it sounds like where you're not, only where you are. Just like you can't play guitar, drums, keys, etc. while you're playing bass.

The key is, what to do about it?

All you really can do is your job, as well as you can, & trust others to do their jobs as well as they can. Just like you can't play the guitar player's part (or the drummer's, or the keyboard player's, can't sing multi-part harmonies by yourself, etc.) you can't mix FOH while you're playing onstage. But you can & should influence that sound, just like you can & should have some influence over your bandmates' parts & how they play them (& them influence you, too!).

A sound engineer is like another member of the band, good or bad. They can improve the band's overall sound or trash it, just like another member playing an instrument and/or singing would. You all have to work together, trust each other, & not walk all over each other's "territories".

[jmattbassplaya]

Although I've never played on any large stages myself, one thing I hear from most seasoned vets is that while it's tempting to spread out and take up the whole stage it's much better to stay close to one another the first few times you do play at large venues.

And just to echo what others have said, how you sound on stage is vastly different than how you sound off stage - regardless of the size of the venue.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Although I've never played on any large stages myself, one thing I hear from most seasoned vets is that while it's tempting to spread out and take up the whole stage it's much better to stay close to one another the first few times you do play at large venues.

Exhibit A, ZZ Top. I remember seeing them on a stage that was at least half a football field wide and Billy and Dusty still weren't more than 20 feet apart from each other most of the night. It looked kind of funny, three guys clumped together on this massive stage, but they were playing so well you really didn't notice.

[BroKenSticKs]

I've yet to play on any large stages but, even on small stages you really don't have any way of knowing what it sounds like out front. Usually my band has a pretty good stage sound and i'm able to feel like it sounds good and i get into it. But one time we played a show and it sounded horrible on stage. I couldn't hear myself properly or my guitar players. It felt like i was playing air bass to my drummer. Because it sounded crappy to me i felt like it sounded crappy outfront aswell so this effected my performance negatively. The thing is, after the show people were saying how great the sound was, and the band that followed us sounded great so i believed it. Ever since then i have decided to assume it sounds amazing outfront and play my ass off regardless of what the stage sound is like. This way you cant go wrong because even if it does sound bad out front...what can you do about it? Is pretending it sounds great and playing well going to make things worse? No...it can only make things better.

Sort of rambled on a bit sorry lol

[MNAirHead]

I've found that having talkback mikes only to the monitors helps...

In these I prefer IEM.. I then can have a mix where the drummer and I can talk back and forth if needed.

Tim

[SLIV]

First time on a giant stage, we were such noobs that our instrument cables weren't long enough to reach between the amps and the front mics! How embarrassing... Had to borrow 50 foot cables from the sound company.

Outdoors, felt really...quiet...and totally out of touch. Everyone said it sounded fine. Typical.

[SteveC]

We rarely play a big stage - thank God. It can be fun,, but we ALWAYS play better in a smaller setting. We hear better, communicate better, it's all just better.

[jaywa]

I would always choose to play a smaller room nearly full, than a huge venue mostly empty.

You don't want to wind up like these guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8sNoodIDk