Lesson Learned For Future Sound Checks

[Gearhead17]

Played a show tonight (it's like 2:23am as I type this ), overall it went really well. Crowd cheered several times for us, and none of the songs scared people away. I loved the tone I was getting and made sure to keep my stage volume in check.

Anyway, the sound guy was talking to my drummer and guitarist and basically said I need to get a compressor. When I switched from my regular clean bass tone to the VT Bass/Radial Blend pedal distortion/overdrive tone, well, there was a definite volume difference. The distortion tone was much louder than the clean tone and supposedly, my distorted tone was overtaking the mix something fierce. (the regulars said we sounded really good and I did not bury anybody). I sent a direct signal of the clean channel and the distortion/clean blend (Radial Effects Loop switch to change them). In the end, I was angry at the sound man for not telling me to turn my distortion tone down. On the other hand, I was angry at myself for not talking to him during the sound check and asking him to sound check the two signals I had.

To every bass player who uses effects live - during your 30 second sound check (tonight's check lasted only 12 seconds), TELL the sound man you have different tones and would like him/her to hear ALL of them. Speak up while you are setting up and during the sound check if you have to. Also, be careful about direct signals - make sure your clean tone and effects are close to the same volume. I know it's not always possible to do so, but do it if you can. If the sound guy balks at you, give him the tones anyway - ultimately, you need to prove you are helping him out.

[KeithAlanK]

As a soundman, I agree with everything you said and appreciate you spreading the word.

There's nothing worse than getting hit with an effect or surprise! active bass that's way louder than we were prepared for.

BTW: You don't need a compressor unless there's no other way to balance your volumes better.

[loopee]

besides, dont soundguys have compressors at the ready in the PA?

[Schlyder]

I guess the moral of the story is.... if the soundguy only gives 30 seconds of attention for soundchecking the bass, they shouldn't bitch about the surprises during the show. Just sayin.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

I guess the moral of the story is.... if the soundguy only gives 30 seconds of attention for soundchecking the bass, they shouldn't bitch about the surprises during the show. Just sayin.

Wouldn't the better lesson to take from this story be to communicate with the sound man and to make sure that the sound man understands during sound check what your loudest setting sounds like?

[JustDavid]

I don't think a compressor will solve the observed issue, & that recommendation lessens my faith in the sound tech's abilities.

Insisting on a soundcheck for all aspects of your rig is a prudent countermeasure. Even if it takes 120 seconds (time taken to convince tech to do his job is on his clock, not yours).

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by KeithAlanK

BTW: You don't need a compressor unless there's no other way to balance your volumes better.

I can see where it might be needed.

Overdriven guitars in tube amps and most effects processors end up compressing the guitars, sometimes a lot. Meanwhile the bass player is playing clean, his dynamics are all over the place, depends on how hard he plays.

Some compression on the bass puts him on a level playing field with the guitars.

So I agree, matching the different effects volumes is a better idea than trying to tame the differences with a compressor. But the compressor comes in handy even when there are no effect changes to match.

Not sure I'd go as far as "need" a compressor, but would definitely say highly recommended.

Randy

[Gearhead17]

I was thinking a compressor was not necessary. I can just turn the VT Bass down a little bit. The Level needs to come down and I need to reduce the "Low knob". The pedal is basically set to cut through and give me the tone I want - I succeeded there! The settings are great through my stage rig, but are not too great through the front of house.

I was a little confused why the sound guy did not turn me down when I kicked in distortion. He talked to my guitar player through the monitors during an intro of song - I wish he would have told me "Hey, your other sound is way too loud!". It also sounded like he did not want to do more work than he wanted (like plug my sound into one of his compressors). Rather than get angry here, I need to make the adjustments and talk to him at the next show.

[bassteban]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

I guess the moral of the story is.... if the soundguy only gives 30 seconds of attention for soundchecking the bass, they shouldn't bitch about the surprises during the show. Just sayin.

Keep in mind that the sound guy will have the *last word* during the show.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

I was thinking a compressor was not necessary. I can just turn the VT Bass down a little bit.

Originally Posted by steveksux

I can see where it might be needed.

Overdriven guitars in tube amps and most effects processors end up compressing the guitars, sometimes a lot. Meanwhile the bass player is playing clean, his dynamics are all over the place, depends on how hard he plays.

Some compression on the bass puts him on a level playing field with the guitars.

So I agree, matching the different effects volumes is a better idea than trying to tame the differences with a compressor. But the compressor comes in handy even when there are no effect changes to match.

Not sure I'd go as far as "need" a compressor, but would definitely say highly recommended.

Randy

+1

Even w/o the difference in the effects/clean volume, controlling the difference between the db range of the bass with a compressor can be very helpful to one's overall sound.

Additionally, a low-pass filter aka rumble filter aka sub-sonic filter may also clean up unwanted lowend grumbles that can distort the speakers and/or add undesirable frequency anomalies.

[TomB]

I do sound as well as play bass so I see it from both sides.

A lot of sound techs will ask you NOT to use a compressor in your rig (not me). I've always expected it's because they WANT to be responsible for the dynamics in the mains and the amount of compression applied. However, extreme volume differences between patches aren't solved by compression.

It's not easy to ride a fader all night... if you're running the board you're already doing that for soloists, you don't typically expect to do so for bass other than for solos. So I agree, best to sound check all your modes in advance. That way the sound tech can work out a simple alternate setting as needed or you can adjust your send if need be.

[GregShadoan]

Bass is one of the few instruments that will always get a compressor if I am at FOH. I agree though that you should work to get your effects level matched to your non effects levels. That is really the broken part here.

[knumbskull]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

+1

Even w/o the difference in the effects/clean volume, controlling the difference between the db range of the bass with a compressor can be very helpful to one's overall sound.

Additionally, a low-pass filter aka rumble filter aka sub-sonic filter may also clean up unwanted lowend grumbles that can distort the speakers and/or add undesirable frequency anomalies.

agree, though don't you mean a high pass filter?

I've been looking at an SFX Micro Thumpinator for this

also, (you should tell and) the sound guy should ask if you're using different sounds...surely?

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

I guess the moral of the story is.... if the soundguy only gives 30 seconds of attention for soundchecking the bass, they shouldn't bitch about the surprises during the show. Just sayin.

if the soundguy doesn't know that you have different effects, he won't need more than 30 seconds. I think the best bet, compressor or not, is to communicate so the guy knows how to EQ you.

9 out of 10 bands has an uneffected bass player, so it's not an odd thing for him to assume that the bass player was going to have wildly different tones up on stage.

Just remember what they say about assuming...

[Gearhead17]

The funny part on all of this, the sound guy was on stage with us when we setting up and saw my pedal board. I am positive he heard me set up my rig with the distortion channel up fairly loud.

The other venues never complain about my distortion channel. Same settings at those places too.

I also thought getting a compressor in my signal chain to the sound guy could make his life more difficult. Most sound guys have a compressor channel for the bass player anyway. One level of compression on my end plus another level of compression could result is a terrible bass tone.

This whole situation bugged me because I could have fixed it beforehand. Live and learn.

[Muzoid]

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

The funny part on all of this, the sound guy was on stage with us when we setting up and saw my pedal board. I am positive he heard me set up my rig with the distortion channel up fairly loud.

The other venues never complain about my distortion channel. Same settings at those places too.

I also thought getting a compressor in my signal chain to the sound guy could make his life more difficult. Most sound guys have a compressor channel for the bass player anyway. One level of compression on my end plus another level of compression could result is a terrible bass tone.

This whole situation bugged me because I could have fixed it beforehand. Live and learn.

This was musician error....regardless of how long the soundman took on the bass channel...30 seconds is all it takes a pro....sometimes even less.

the pro's know that they just need a level check, the bass always sounds different in the mix compared to solo, and should never be set for sound by way of bass solo.

Like multi-FX guitar players, it is their duty beforehand to level their sounds....slight boost for solos etc. Keyboard players need to level presets as well.

If you have a major volume boost/drop throughout the show, the sound tech should be aware of this....after all, essentially this info will be helpful in making YOU sound better.

But you should really consider leveling your sounds....you should not need a compressor for this, your FX should have independent levels for individual effects (or dry/wet/output levels).....and this is the reason for that.

[TimmyP]

Once I've soundchecked your clean, definitely give me your other tones so they can be balanced in the house (sometimes it's not just volume, but tone that needs to be tweaked).

Please don't highpass the signal to the DI.

Compression in your rig: Some are OK, some ain't. Let's hear it and see how it works.

[KeithAlanK]

I ALWAYS have a compressor for the bass when I run FOH, but will never fault a player for using his own. The more the merrier. Get YOUR tone and response on stage.
But if you have an effect patch that's so loud that it startles everyone, a comp in your rig isn't the fix.
Balance your output levels first, then use a compressor to smooth things out a bit?

[pedroims]

Did you communicate this to the sound guy prior to the show or at least did you include your effects during the sound check? I dont use effects often but when I do my main concern is to keep them at line level, its not hard to understand that effects will boost your signal to crazy levels if not handle with care.

[Never_grew_up]

1 - You're dead on about communicating w/the sound guy. In most small-mid size clubs there's only 1 guy & he has to deal with setting the backline mics-DI's/vocal mics/drumkit mics/moving monitors around from the opening act. He(she) may or may not also be a musician so may or may not really understand what all the thingamajigs that people show up do to their sound & signal level.

2 - Was the difference in volume between clean & distorted that different on stage? If not, maybe sending a single signal from the line out of your amp would be easier/cleaner.
Whatever else you do to your signal chain that tames the volume difference on stage would also be done to the FOH signal.