line out or mic for gigs?

[paf77]

Do most venues mic up the bass amps or just do line out to the pa? I'm sure it depends on the sound guy, but what usually sounds best?

[bongomania]

"Sounds best" is going to vary pretty widely. It depends on what kind of amp, DI, or mic is being used, and whether it is used well/correctly.

Most venues take a DI line straight off the bass, often with their own house DI box. If you have your own nice DI (a good idea) they should be open to using it. If you have a DI output on your amp, they'll sometimes be willing to take that if it sounds decent. Miking is a great option, but a lot of soundguys don't know how to do it well and they consider it a pain in the butt, so they will grumble--some may even refuse.

Again though it depends on the specific circumstances, it's different from one venue to the next.

[dbassman59]

I always DI out of my amp to FOH and let the soundman take care of the mix ... even on smaller venues where we are the soundmen.

[dhomer]

Been a very long time since I plugged into a DI.. If I need PA support I just run the XLR off my Bmax. Thing is, it may cause a little headache for the sound man, because you have your amp EQ set so it sounds OK on your stage rig. The signal may be a bit lacking for the FOH mix. Normally in my case the FOH just adds some highs to blend w/the stage rig.

[TimmyP]

If the bass rig is loud (the norm), a pre-EQ DI, as it gives deeper bottom than the bass rig.

If the bass rig is not loud, a pre-EQ DI and perhaps a mic as well.

In spite of what many bassists feel about the sound of their amp, I've yet to encounter one who's sound was so distinctive that a DI alone did not serve him well. (Serve him well means sounds better through the PA than his bass rig sounds anywhere in the house, and usually better than it sounds on stage as well.)

[Ravyn80]

having mic'd my setup for the first time last weekend....I love the sound of a mic over DI.

Although, one venue I played out, the sound guy used to grumble if I even suggested doing something other than the way he wanted it done. He's not there anymore...yay.

It's more common to DI because the signal to noise ratio is a lot higher, so it's easier to get a pretty good sound. When using a mic, there will be spill from other places, and it's a muddier sound, so it's more difficult.

However, some sound guys like to mic the bass because they prefer the sound. Sometimes they even do both.

I use a sansamp rbi for my di - sound men like it and it means i can colour the signal a bit before it goes to the desk, also i have an eq on the sansamp, and one on the bass amp, so I can give the desk an eqed signal whilst being able to control my amp eq separately.

[JackANSI]

Originally Posted by afromoose

It's more common to DI because the signal to noise ratio is a lot higher, so it's easier to get a pretty good sound. When using a mic, there will be spill from other places, and it's a muddier sound, so it's more difficult.

However, some sound guys like to mic the bass because they prefer the sound. Sometimes they even do both.

I use a sansamp rbi for my di - sound men like it and it means i can colour the signal a bit before it goes to the desk, also i have an eq on the sansamp, and one on the bass amp, so I can give the desk an eqed signal whilst being able to control my amp eq separately.

I've got many miles on my RBI. Not one complaint from a sound guy (about the direct out or the tone/clarity).

Direct gives you lower stage volume without increasing risk of PA feedback and one less thing to trip over when you go up to your amp to change something to suit the situation.

I do pack 2 direct boxes just in case, but more often the guitarist is borrowing them for is modeling rig

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

In spite of what many bassists feel about the sound of their amp, I've yet to encounter one who's sound was so distinctive that a DI alone did not serve him well. (Serve him well means sounds better through the PA than his bass rig sounds anywhere in the house, and usually better than it sounds on stage as well.)

Are you including tube amps in that?

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by afromoose

I use a sansamp rbi for my di - sound men like it and it means i can colour the signal a bit before it goes to the desk, also i have an eq on the sansamp, and one on the bass amp, so I can give the desk an eqed signal whilst being able to control my amp eq separately.

Yes, but does the FOH guy want an EQ'd signal? That debate seems to go on forever.

Riis

[JackANSI]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Yes, but does the FOH guy want an EQ'd signal? That debate seems to go on forever.

Riis

When in doubt, ask. Then do what the sound guy says.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

Are you including tube amps in that?

Yep. IME the best one can hope for is a rig that is not overloading the room at certain frequencies, so that the entire band has to me mixed up to the level of said overly loud frequencies, as having the snare and 4x12 (that's shooting past the guitarist's knees) are enough to fight already. The best bass sounds I've heard by far - both with myself and with others at the console - were bassists who used no rig, relying on IEMS or a wedge (along with PA spill for feel).

[JustDavid]

I disagree that a tube amp doesn't put a distinctive sound to a bass.

I'm with you on the stage volume issue, but not on that point.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

I disagree that a tube amp doesn't put a distinctive sound to a bass.

I'm with you on the stage volume issue, but not on that point.

Everything has a sound of its own. However in the big scheme of things, with very rare exception, you've heard one bass rig, you've heard 'em all. They are like vanilla ice cream - every brand tastes different, but except for that rare brand, none are sufficiently different from the rest to be special.

[ryco]

If you can, DI out of your bass to the board and get another line to mic your cab - let the sound guy blend the two,

If you have only one line - DI the bass to board.

[klokker]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

In spite of what many bassists feel about the sound of their amp, I've yet to encounter one who's sound was so distinctive that a DI alone did not serve him well. (Serve him well means sounds better through the PA than his bass rig sounds anywhere in the house, and usually better than it sounds on stage as well.)

This is the truth it seems about bass amps. In the end, what people hear is mostly what comes out of the PA. So it seems to me that any decent amp/combo with a pre and post EQ Direct out is the ticket.

My son played in a battle of the bands on Saturday night in a 200-300 person sized venue. One bass player in another band had a nice big stack. The bass player in his band brought along his Fender Bassman 250/115 Combo and just plugged in to the DI.

No difference.

[jimb213]

It depends if the bass player is using fuzz or other effects. A direct signal with fuzz will usually sound terrible and bite the heads off the audience. But sending it through a cab first, and mic'ing that will usually smooth out the worst of the harshness. Since I use a tech21 XXL pedal relatively frequently, I prefer to be mic'd.

But if I'm doing one of my singer/songwriter gigs (ie, no effects), I'm happy to go direct and leave things to the soundman.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by jimb213

It depends if the bass player is using fuzz or other effects. A direct signal with fuzz will usually sound terrible and bite the heads off the audience. But sending it through a cab first, and mic'ing that will usually smooth out the worst of the harshness. Since I use a tech21 XXL pedal relatively frequently, I prefer to be mic'd.

But if I'm doing one of my singer/songwriter gigs (ie, no effects), I'm happy to go direct and leave things to the soundman.

If the bass channel is low-passed appropriately, direct fuzz should not sound bad. I often low-pass even clean direct bass.

(Edit: corrected high-pass(ed) to low-pass(ed).)

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

Everything has a sound of its own. However in the big scheme of things, with very rare exception, you've heard one bass rig, you've heard 'em all. They are like vanilla ice cream - every brand tastes different, but except for that rare brand, none are sufficiently different from the rest to be special.

Two thoughts spring to mind...

1. I hope you don't say that to anyone you run sound for, lest you bum them out and ruin their set.

2. I hope you don't try to impose your will on bands by doing things like refusing to run them a mic when they want one or insisting that they turn down so low that they can't even hear their amps onstage (don't laugh...I've had a handful of idiots try to do that).

Whether someone's rig is special enough or not to mic up really isn't your call. If a bass player thinks his rig is special enough to where it should be mic'ed up instead of DI'd, there's usually good reason for it. Maybe bass doesn't take the "traditional" role, or maybe they're going for a sound that desn't work with a DI. Or maybe they just plain like the sound of their amp mic'ed into a PA. It's not something that you can apply a one-size-fits-all solution and make blanket statements about.

A couple other comments...

Running without an amp? Not in this lifetime, bro! I don't care what you say...I think it sounds like crap to have to listen to the bass in monitors, and sorry...what I listen to onstage is every bit as important as anything coming out of FOH.

High passing and fuzz...it's not the low end that's a problem with fuzz and distortion. It's the high end. Anything past 5 or 6k, especially if it's coming out of a tweeter, sounds harsh and annoying. So I'm not sure why you would high pass it. That will make the low end less woofy maybe, but it doesn't do much for making the high end less annoying, which is what's needed.

[woffle]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Two thoughts spring to mind...

1. I hope you don't say that to anyone you run sound for, lest you bum them out and ruin their set.

2. I hope you don't try to impose your will on bands by doing things like refusing to run them a mic when they want one or insisting that they turn down so low that they can't even hear their amps onstage (don't laugh...I've had a handful of idiots try to do that).

Whether someone's rig is special enough or not to mic up really isn't your call. If a bass player thinks his rig is special enough to where it should be mic'ed up instead of DI'd, there's usually good reason for it. Maybe bass doesn't take the "traditional" role, or maybe they're going for a sound that desn't work with a DI. Or maybe they just plain like the sound of their amp mic'ed into a PA. It's not something that you can apply a one-size-fits-all solution and make blanket statements about.

A couple other comments...

Running without an amp? Not in this lifetime, bro! I don't care what you say...I think it sounds like crap to have to listen to the bass in monitors, and sorry...what I listen to onstage is every bit as important as anything coming out of FOH.

High passing and fuzz...it's not the low end that's a problem with fuzz and distortion. It's the high end. Anything past 5 or 6k, especially if it's coming out of a tweeter, sounds harsh and annoying. So I'm not sure why you would high pass it. That will make the low end less woofy maybe, but it doesn't do much for making the high end less annoying, which is what's needed.

Well said Jimmy.
About 50% of the guys at the mixer could maybe stand 15
mins next to the bass player on stage and could,I'm sure
learn something,at the very least HEAR.
I am sure this is a situation which,in my lifetime shall have no
remedies
Woffle