Live sound - eq issues

[LonghornTaco]

Hey guys, new here and I have a question I'm hoping some of you more seasoned bass players can help with...

I'm playing bass in a new rock cover band now (historically been a guitar guy) and I have my third show tomorrow night. I have an Ampeg SVT3-Pro head and a SVT410HLF cab. We're just a cover band playing smaller bars (100-300 people) so the rig is probably way overkill, but it's what I have to work with for now.

The problem I'm having is that, when I'm standing next to it on stage, I can barely hear my rig and 10 feet away, my guitar player can't hear it at all. But in the back of the bar at the board, the low end is just resonating like crazy, so I can't simply turn it up (as much as I'd like to!). In between sets at my last show, I tried cranking the mids some, take a little bass out on stage and let the house subs carry most of the load, but it really didn't help a whole lot.

Any tips on how to balance that kind of thing out?

[Jimbob Jones]

Turn your amp so it's not pointing directly a the back wall. If you can, tilt your cab so it's pointing towards your ear more.

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

Turn your amp so it's not pointing directly a the back wall. If you can, tilt your cab so it's pointing towards your ear more.

Agreed - it's what I do on a regular occasion. I have played that head before and I will suggest this - take the 33hz slider on the EQ and push it all the way down. The 80hz slider, bring that down half way and keep the bass knob at the "noon" setting. Grab a 2x4 or something that can handle a 90lb cab on it, and put it under the front of the cab to get the cab angling closer to your ears. Also, turn the cab so it's mostly hitting you, but at least a little towards your guitar players. Even better would be to angle the cab away from the crowd and just toward you and the band. Try that tone first and just experiment with the volume. A little boost 450-600hz may be all you need at that point.

You may think I am crazy with the low end ideas, but it will help you create less low end on stage which leads to: less low end to fight with for the sound guy, you can hear your notes much better, and when the sub woofers of the PA are firing away - you be able to hear your bass tone right much better. If you are blasting low end crazily on stage and have the PA subs doing the same thing, you will end up with way too much low end on stage. It will be difficult to hear what you are doing up there. Believe me, it's better to cut low end on stage to hear your bass tone.

[JoZac21]

Also... perhaps this need not be said, but simply because the instrument is called a "bass" doesn't mean that treble isn't your friend. I find I can hear myself on stage better, and I have a better overall tone now that I turn the treble on both my amp and instrument up higher than the bass. Hope this helps!

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by JoZac21

Also... perhaps this need not be said, but simply because the instrument is called a "bass" doesn't mean that treble isn't your friend. I find I can hear myself on stage better, and I have a better overall tone now that I turn the treble on both my amp and instrument up higher than the bass. Hope this helps!

Right on! A boost between 1khz and 3khz is key to getting finger style tones to be clear and to get pick playing tones to stand out.

[JoZac21]

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

Right on! A boost between 1khz and 3khz is key to getting finger style tones to be clear and to get pick playing tones to stand out.

I don't play with a pick too much (no hate, just very little need... I have a very strong right hand attack) but there is much more clarity when you boost your highs IME. I was initially a guitar player, like the OP, and it simple made sense to me when I switched to bass to boost the lows and cut the highs... I'm making an assumption the OP thought the same as I did... and it's not true at all... highs are your friend!

[LonghornTaco]

Thanks for all the responses so far!

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

Turn your amp so it's not pointing directly a the back wall. If you can, tilt your cab so it's pointing towards your ear more.

The first show, I had the cab on the back wall, but pointing almost straight to the crowd (and I stood directly in front of it). The second show, I moved it and put the cab on the side of the stage, directly to my right, pointing straigt left at the guitar player. 10 feet away, he still couldn't hear it at all. And when I'd walk over to his side of the stage, I couldn't hear it either - so he's not being just a b*tchy lead... I think boosting the mids and highs more might help this. FWIW, we're a four-piece - two guitars, bass and drums.

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

Agreed - it's what I do on a regular occasion. I have played that head before and I will suggest this - take the 33hz slider on the EQ and push it all the way down. The 80hz slider, bring that down half way and keep the bass knob at the "noon" setting. Grab a 2x4 or something that can handle a 90lb cab on it, and put it under the front of the cab to get the cab angling closer to your ears. Also, turn the cab so it's mostly hitting you, but at least a little towards your guitar players. Even better would be to angle the cab away from the crowd and just toward you and the band. Try that tone first and just experiment with the volume. A little boost 450-600hz may be all you need at that point.

You may think I am crazy with the low end ideas, but it will help you create less low end on stage which leads to: less low end to fight with for the sound guy, you can hear your notes much better, and when the sub woofers of the PA are firing away - you be able to hear your bass tone right much better. If you are blasting low end crazily on stage and have the PA subs doing the same thing, you will end up with way too much low end on stage. It will be difficult to hear what you are doing up there. Believe me, it's better to cut low end on stage to hear your bass tone.

Thanks for the specifics! I'll definitely check this out when I get it all unpacked tonight! And I'll find something to tilt it back a little...

Originally Posted by JoZac21

Also... perhaps this need not be said, but simply because the instrument is called a "bass" doesn't mean that treble isn't your friend. I find I can hear myself on stage better, and I have a better overall tone now that I turn the treble on both my amp and instrument up higher than the bass. Hope this helps!

I'm playing a Jazz bass, so it's passive, but I have both pickups all the way up (to avoid some extra buzz) and the tone trimmed a little more towards the bridge pickup.

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

Right on! A boost between 1khz and 3khz is key to getting finger style tones to be clear and to get pick playing tones to stand out.

Originally Posted by JoZac21

I don't play with a pick too much (no hate, just very little need... I have a very strong right hand attack) but there is much more clarity when you boost your highs IME. I was initially a guitar player, like the OP, and it simple made sense to me when I switched to bass to boost the lows and cut the highs... I'm making an assumption the OP thought the same as I did... and it's not true at all... highs are your friend!

I'm a 99% finger player too (except for a couple tunes).

So, it's sounding like it's basically more of what I initially thought, just didn't go far enough - cut the lows, boost the mids and highs more. I'll definitely play around with it tonight and see how much more awesome I can sound! :P

[PopaWoody]

Is your drummer playing too hard. Our stage volume is minimalist. No one has an issue hearing themselves except our vocalist, if she struggles both the guitar and myself turn down, which in turn keeps our drummer at reasonable volumes. Do you DI out of the head? you can set your DI to pre amp out and just use the Ampeg's main output volume control to set your volume on stage. Drop the lows too. Let the PA handle that.

[derrico1]

Just b/c the back of the club is awash in low end doesn't mean the bass is causing it. Often the problem is how the band is handling (or not attending to) eq slotting and stage volume.

Any chance one or both of the guitarists bring a lot of low end at high volume? Is the drummer's kick over-busy, eq'ed up into the bass guitar's range, and cranked in the monitors?

If the band isn't setting individual tones and volumes for the sake of the overall band sound, it isn't a problem you can best solve by yourself.

[uhdinator]

1. Point your bass rig across stage
2. Does your guit player have his bass tone cranked? turn bass down on guitar amp and cut back 80hz on guit mixer channel if mic'd, use HPF if avail on mixer channel.
3. your bass may sound too much treble standing next to your amp but walk across stage near your guit player and listen how you dissapear if you don't have some top end to keep from being mud.

[ariff]

Been playing bass for around 22 years and I ran into this exact issue last night as well. We are a 7 piece cover band as well. I was playing through a Peavey Firebass 700 with an Avatar 2x10 and 1x15. Bass guitar was a American standard P bass with a John East P-retro active circuit installed. We have played this club several other times with the same gear and no issues. However the sound guy was different. It seemed like he knew what he was doing, but he kept getting on to me that my bass was too loud and too much low end. It was very distracting as he was using the talk back mic to tell me this in between songs holding up the show. Very unprofessional in my opinion. He should have waited till our break to come talk to me and figure out a solution. Anyhow I tried just about everything I could cutting lows boosting mids and highs. Turing down to the point I could not hear my bass. He claimed it was so bad he could not even put me in the house mix. I have never had this problem that bad before. I am trying to keep up with two Marshall half stacks, a loud drummer, keyboard player and vocals. I can't tilt the cabs since there are two of them. I guess next time I can try pointing the cab more towards the band and not facing the floor. I think the sound guy we had was a little sensitive to bass or something as I asked several friends in the crowd what they thought, one who is a bass player and one who is a sound tech. They both said it sounded good. It was very distracting and made for a night of me worrying more about my tone instead of enjoying the set. So I want to be sure I have some tricks to avoid this in the future. Sorry to hi-jack your thread.. But just wanted to let ya know it happened to me as well. So I'll be interested to see what others have to say on the subject.. Subscribed
Thanks

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by ariff

my bass was too loud and too much low end. It was very distracting as he was using the talk back mic to tell me this in between songs holding up the show. Very unprofessional in my opinion. He should have waited till our break to come talk to me and figure out a solution. Anyhow I tried just about everything I could cutting lows boosting mids and highs. Turing down to the point I could not hear my bass. He claimed it was so bad he could not even put me in the house mix. I have never had this problem that bad before. I am trying to keep up with two Marshall half stacks, a loud drummer, keyboard player and vocals. I can't tilt the cabs since there are two of them. I guess next time I can try pointing the cab more towards the band and not facing the floor. I think the sound guy we had was a little sensitive to bass or something....
Thanks

The big issue here - both guitarists have 412's. I play with two guitarists (5 piece band including me) with 212's, PLENTY loud with the ability to get crazy loud. I think your sound guy has no idea about the low end coming out of the 412's and drums. He probably assumed it was you without realizing you need to put a high pass filter on nearly everything on stage so no one has too much low end coming out.

You could try putting the 210 vertical on top of the 115. Just an idea....

I highly doubt your 115 and 210 were TOO LOUD on stage. I almost think they would not be loud enough.

[ariff]

Yeah the more I think about it the more I think the sound guy may not have known exactly where the low end was comming from. I kept turning down and he kept saying it was not helping. Like I said we play this venue a lot and this was the first time I got in trouble ;>) maybe it was not my fault. Anyhow I think next time I play there I may put my rig on the side of the stage pointing towards me and not the floor. See if that helps. Hopefully we'll have a different sound guy next time.

[bassboysam]

A jazz bass with both pups on full will tend to scoop the mids. Try rolling back a little on the neck pickup, you will get a lit more clarity and bite in the mids. Any noise issues should dissipate once you start playing and shouldn't be noticeable.