live sound frudtrates me

[funkybass]

I've been to many live shows, both professional and local, as well as played many live shows. I'd say 9 times out of 10 you can't hear the bass. Anyone else get frustrated with this?

[WardEarth]

I've had it happen, but I think my gear helps me balance that problem. I've had to blast it up to 9-10, the svt-3 pro isn't that loud but it works. Having a good amp and set of speakers at your control is very nice.
The bass coming out of the PA is up to the sound man. Usually the monitor speaker are much smaller then the mains, this means most of the bass is shooting up front and all you get is the 1x12 and its like 4-6 feet away from you sitting on the floor! If your cable is long enough, jump into the crowd and see how the bass sounds.
Make nice with the sound man and get the sound to your liking, or at least as good as it can.

Hope that helps, it kinda sounds like you need a better setup. Im usually running a 4x10, but I have a 1x18 as well and with those stacked up I get plenty of power.

[funkybass]

I'm not really talking about my sound, just live sound in general. Whenever I go to concerts I can hardly make out the bass. I went to see Red(a hard rock Christian band) and you couldn't hardly make the bass out. I could feel it though!

[brndn123]

I've rarely encountered that issue at a pro gig and I've played and been to a bajillion gigs.

[Munjibunga]

I have the opposite issue. It seems like every concert I go to, the sound man has the bass volume up way too high and EQed way too low. It's just a big wall of boomy mush.

[infoseeker]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I have the opposite issue. It seems like every concert I go to, the sound man has the bass volume up way too high and EQed way too low. It's just a big wall of boomy mush.

+1 to that. I am really sick of going to shows and know they are playing great music, but only feeling the bass without really being able to hear it or anything else. Too much emphasis on how much air they can move without caring what that air is sounding like.

[Ajrocks]

Part of the problem might be the owners/managers of clubs, I've been told to turn down tons of times, yet because vocals, drums and guitars are loud you can't hear me. so when I turned up the place starts shaking, that was when I was eq'd all low end no high and about 10 oclock on the mids

[klokker]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I have the opposite issue. It seems like every concert I go to, the sound man has the bass volume up way too high and EQed way too low. It's just a big wall of boomy mush.

Right. Our band guys think that it will be real cool to have this huge sub cranked to the max to feel the bass. It just turns everything into a boomy mess. With my band the bass is usually punchy, clear, and clean enough without much bass in the subs at all. Subs are like seasoning......not too much.

[WayneP]

There are a lot of issues that contribute to this problem, starting with sound men that don’t practice “frequency slotting.” The only way for the bass to be clearly heard is if it is the only thing carrying the bottom end. This means limiting the low freq output of just about everything else on the stage.

But they don’t do that. Listen to the vocalist talking between songs and you’ll hear all this resonating low end (I’ll bet his voice isn’t that “bassy” naturally). Listen to the guitar when it’s opening a song, and you’ll also hear a lot of low end. Same thing with the drum kit: In-your-chest low end not just from the kick, but from every tom-tom. It makes each instrument sound nice and “full,” and that would be fine if any of them were the only thing on the stage. But when everyone fires up all at the same time, generating tons of output in the 80-200 Hz range, it’s sonic mush. Lots of air movement, like infoseaker mentioned, but sonic mush.

What the sound man isn’t getting is that you don’t employ the same EQ technique for a full band that you do for a lone singer/guitar player act. You need that “fullness” for a single-person act, but if you do the same thing for a full band it’s destructive.

Also contributing to the problem is the stage monitors. They should be high passed at 200 Hz or so, but never are. They always run full-range.

Finally, in smaller rooms the musicians themselves are a problem, with the backline amps (both guitar and bass) generating too much low end. On top of that, the vocalists and guitar players are usually crying that they want to hear themselves with more low-end in the house mix.

Bottom line - you’ll never get a coherent bass guitar sound at a show if the low freq from everything else in the room is out of control. Get all the low freq under control and you’ll find that the bass is easy to hear, even if it sounds like crap.

A small “real life” example of what too much low end from the wrong instruments can get you: The guitar player in my band likes all that bass, and it’s constantly a challenge for me to be heard over him. In our practices, our drummer often complains he can’t hear me. Well, last year the guitar player was out of town for the whole summer, during which time we continued to practice without him. The first practice after he comes back, the drummer is complaining that he can’t hear me. It dawned on me: He hadn’t said that even once the entire time our bass-happy guitar player had been gone!

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[MNAirHead]

You could be hearing the better current gear... many sound engineers can push bass lower and slot it.

Quite sincerely the audience won't pay more for better bass.

[Gearhead17]

WayneP is 100% correct. You have to limit the low end content of everything around you to properly hear the bass, otherwise it becomes a wall of mush. I saw Rob Zombie not long ago and I BARELY heard Blasko play, even John 5 was a little too quiet. Joey Jordison (Slipknot's drummer) had way too much 80-200hz coming out of his drum kit. The kick drums alone buried the bass guitar. It really sucked.

Oddly enough, the death metal band Suffocation is recorded (mostly) like this and sound excellent live. A lot of the low end is tamed on the guitars/drums/vocals and you can actually hear the bass along with hearing everyone else really well. I was always amazed by that. Lynyrd Skynyrd was the same way - how do you think the bass cut through three guitars on the albums? The low end from everybody was kept in check along with the bass being quite punchy and mixed respectfully.

[Johnny Crab]

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

Lynyrd Skynyrd was the same way - how do you think the bass cut through three guitars on the albums? The low end from everybody was kept in check along with the bass being quite punchy and mixed respectfully.

And the patch developed here for his songs sounds quite middle-y/treble-y when played alone but in a band context it works fine.

For larger shows, you're at the mercy of the FOH person. The best I've done is:

1) Old school, large stage: DI for bottom and mic an 8"(SWR) or 10"(SVT) with a Sennheiser 421 for mid/top
OR
2) DI only from a Line 6 BassPODXTLive. Then FOH gets it.

ALWAYS make friends with and work with the FOH folks. Using a wireless in soundcheck to visit the FOH and audience area helps too.

[plangentmusic]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I have the opposite issue. It seems like every concert I go to, the sound man has the bass volume up way too high and EQed way too low. It's just a big wall of boomy mush.

BINGO. That's also the problem 9999 times out of !0,000 in the studio as well.

So many so called "sound experts" think that BASS means LOW END, when in fact, the cutting frequency for bass is around 400 hz -- essentially mid range. You then need to add a touch of low end and you're covered.

In all the shows I've seen in my life, and all the performances I've done, I can count one my fingers the amount of times the sound man understood that concept.

[scott0606]

I think this problem lies with experienced sound guys who dont run a DI out of the bass amp. I know we've had this problem before in a few smaller venues and only certain parts of the bar can actually hear my bass. It also doesnt help our guitar player uses one of those tube Bruno amps that can blow the roof off of a bar (But they sound amazing)

[KeithAlanK]

What I do is engage the highpass filter on everything but kickdrum and bass.
Also end up rolling some lows off everyone's EQ.

Then I get the kick happening.

Last, I roll ALL of the lows off the bass and bring it's volume up until it's right in there with the guitar and vocals--THEN I roll up the low EQ on the bass until it's around 4-5dbs under the kick, so you still get that gut-punch.

Quick, easy, great sound.
Sadly, I'm one of the few soundmen around here who don't punish the people with muddy booming lows.

[TrevorOfDoom]

guys, this has all been good and helpful, but you've neglected to mention one thing: the bassist himself, and his EQ.

assuming that he's a competent bassist, we'd like to assume he knows how to use his EQ. sad fact is, most don't. I've been to many a concert where the bassist was happy just chugging away with a smiley face EQ, completely unaware that he couldn't be heard anywhere past the stage.
Yes, the sound guy is an important part of the equation, but if you're not giving the sound guy any decent sound, he doesn't have much that he can do.

[Coolhandjjl]

For live sound, bass is usually rolled off around 60~80hz.