Mic'ing a kickdrum

[freebeer]

Hello everyone,

I am the keeper of the PA system for the band and just wanted to hear everyones suggestions for getting the best sound from the kickdrum. I prefer a good tight sound, not a loose sound. This past weekend we played with a drummer and the sound was great but bordering on the loose end...if that makes any sense. One constant issue I had was between songs the kick would resonate and give a low 'feedback' if you want to call it. I ended up just muting teh kick between songs which is a pain.

I was thinking of just using a compressor/gate on the kick to tighten it up and hopefully get rid of that low feedback.

Current setup is Mackie 1604VLZpro board -> driverack PA -> JBL: MRX515's & Mackie 1501 subs...

Thanks!

[sonic assassin]

a gate would certainly get rid of the feedback.

the tuning and quality of the drum has the most to do with the "tight/loose" thing.

one thing to watch out for is TOO much low end. cutting your kicks at a higher frequency will make them less messy in the bottom end.

[AxtoOx]

I try to play drums also.
How big is it ( 22x18 I figure)?
Does it have a hole in it. 4" 6" or a ring of small holes?
Does he have a pillow in it?
Does he tighten his resonant heads to 40lb or whatever?
What kind or mic?
Tim.

[Nick Kay]

Take the kick out of the monitors, use a gate that's side-chain triggered by a high-passed signal. That way, the gate only opens when there's attack from the beater in the signal. Avoid boosting the hell out of the subs on the kick channel, too. It's way too common and it sounds like trash.

As for tight vs loose, that more comes down to the drum and beater than anything else. Big, stiff drums, tuned slightly higher than expected for their size, and combined with a wood or plastic beater will help get a tighter kick sound. Felt beaters and Bonham or Baker style tuning will give you a huge sound, but it'll be loose as hell.

[freebeer]

Hey everyone...Thanks for the input.

As for the kickdrum size, I am not 100% sure. It's a 'standard' Rock and Roll sized kickdrum. Yamaha kit. Has a hole in the front, probably 8" or a touch smaller. No padding (Pillow or anything) inside the kick.

I do NOT run the kick through the monitors as we are only using HotSpot monitors anyway which would be pointless to try to push the kick through those little guys!

I may set up my gate for this application and give it a try. Thanks again for your feedback.

[kalle74]

Originally Posted by freebeer

Has a hole in the front, probably 8" or a touch smaller. No padding (Pillow or anything) inside the kick.

I may set up my gate for this application and give it a try.

First, put something inside the drum. No need to fill it, a folded towel touching both heads will help getting rid of that "boom" which makes for uncontrolled sound. Second, insert a gate on the kick channel if more control is needed...

[JustDavid]

First thing I'd do is to sit in front of the kick & listen to it. Next I'd talk the sound with the drummer & get a consensus on what the kick sound shall be. If you want tight & he wants loose it's gonna be fun.

[skidrawk]

What kind of mic?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by freebeer

Hey everyone...Thanks for the input.

As for the kickdrum size, I am not 100% sure. It's a 'standard' Rock and Roll sized kickdrum. Yamaha kit. Has a hole in the front, probably 8" or a touch smaller. No padding (Pillow or anything) inside the kick.

If you want a tight bass drum sound, you can't have it ringing all over the place. Most drummers will leave their drums unmuted except for the bass drum.

[Folmeister]

You and I are in the same boat. I have a thread in which I tried to address many drum micing issues. My drummer's kick also hums (feeds back). I found last gig that the vocal monitors make the kick mic stand vibrate also. The amount of vibration that runs through a drum kit (my amp signal is a source) drives me crazy. I am also looking at a gate, but my drummer varies his attack on the kick so much I am afraid it will make things worse!

[D.A.R.K.]

perhaps try a quality noise gate with a key filter, such as a drawmer.
this allows you to choose the frequency spectrum which opens the gate.
a typical, average setting for this is to set the high pass at around 50 hz
and the low pass at 500 hz.
this setting allows the lows and mids from the kick to open the gate,
while keeping the attack from the rest of the kit out of the picture.
of course, you'll have to figure out what setting works best for your situation.
imho, cheap gates are not worth it, the worst is not having a variable attack... these cheap gates tend to introduce artifacts (clicky, unmusical attack) into the signal and can sound quite bad in the wrong setting (not good for quiet ballads, but maybe ok for speed metal where the sharp attack is desirable).

[GregShadoan]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

perhaps try a quality noise gate with a key filter, such as a drawmer.
this allows you to choose the frequency spectrum which opens the gate.
a typical, average setting for this is to set the high pass at around 50 hz
and the low pass at 500 hz.
this setting allows the lows and mids from the kick to open the gate,
while keeping the attack from the rest of the kit out of the picture.
of course, you'll have to figure out what setting works best for your situation.
imho, cheap gates are not worth it, the worst is not having a variable attack... these cheap gates tend to introduce artifacts (clicky, unmusical attack) into the signal and can sound quite bad in the wrong setting (not good for quiet ballads, but maybe ok for speed metal where the sharp attack is desirable).

While I agree that in a pro environment top rated gear will do the job better (drawmer/BSS/etc) for the average weekend warrior band the behringer XR4400 will do the job ok. It has the filters, and atttack and release variables that work pretty well. Sure beats having the kick drum taking off all night long :-)

[D.A.R.K.]

hey, whatever works for ya.
personally, i avoid behringer gear, although i will use it if there is no alternative.
however.... there is a massive, apparent difference in the quality of the sound, not to mention reliability ime.
the drawmer also can be used as a high quality low pass and high pass filter... just insert, and leave it set on key listen.

[greenboy]

Gates are nice, but it's still wise to deal with the actual problems first, by mic choice and positioning and stand isolation, drum tuning and damping, and selective EQing.

[GregShadoan]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

hey, whatever works for ya.
personally, i avoid behringer gear, although i will use it if there is no alternative.
however.... there is a massive, apparent difference in the quality of the sound, not to mention reliability ime.
the drawmer also can be used as a high quality low pass and high pass filter... just insert, and leave it set on key listen.

Hey, I hear ya, I use a bank of DBX 904's but the OP's current rig (all mackie) I didn't think the Behringer was going to be the weakest link here. Plus for about 50 bucks for 4 gates, its a reasonable solution, beyond what Greenboy said, which is the best solution overall.
IME, if the kick drum is feeding back all the time, there is something really else wrong. Eqing and good drum tuning/damping, mic -vs- speaker postioning is the first thing that should be addressed, then add a gate for general principles. Its pretty common to gate kick and toms. It cleans up the drums.
Standard disclaimer - Every situation is different - YMMV

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Gates are nice, but it's still wise to deal with the actual problems first, by mic choice and positioning and stand isolation, drum tuning and damping, and selective EQing.

spot on.
however, there are many situations (many average venues) where the acoustics of the environment are overwhelming, especially in the low end regions. this can be made worse by volume requirements (rock bands).
gates can be excellent to alleviate this problem, without overly-eqing a system to accommodate a single problematic piece (such as a kick drum)
and having adverse effects on other instrumentation (bass guitar).
gates can also help greatly in cleaning up a mix by keeping cymbal volume down, and conserving power (every mic, even if unused and picking up ambient noise, will take it's toll on headroom).
but as stated, gates are hardly the ideal solution, it is always best to deal with the source first.
another suggestion i feel worth mentioning is trying the phase reverse
button(although i'm not sure if the mackie has one, ptretty sure it does not).

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

gates can be excellent to alleviate this problem, without overly-eqing a system to accommodate a single problematic piece (such as a kick drum) and having adverse effects on other instrumentation (bass guitar).

First of all, one should not be EQing the overall mix to deal with a problematic source - they should be using the specific channel's EQ for that, and/or dedicating an outboard EQ inserted to that channel.... I'm not saying that gates are bad (I like 'em!), but if you gate crap you just end up with gated crap.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by greenboy

First of all, one should not be EQing the overall mix to deal with a problematic source - they should be using the specific channel's EQ for that, and/or dedicating an outboard EQ inserted to that channel.... I'm not saying that gates are bad (I like 'em!), but if you gate crap you just end up with gated crap.

good point, if you have eq that is versatile enough (full parametric with variable bell curve) on each channel to seek and destroy, that is best.
or, if you have extra eq to insert, just as good.
looks like the op is dealing with very little, the drive rack eq and maybe 31 band eqs on mixes
(mons)... with a mackie 1604 it'll fall on the house eq more than anything else for precision tuning of problems...
that's the whole mix.
perhaps a bit of everything mentioned, beginning with the source
is in order. all good info.
personally, i really hate noise gates (except as special effects in extreme mixing) but they tend to be a necessary evil.

[greenboy]

I've had to make do with very little at times. Two-band channel EQ, I boost the bass way up to catch the head - and the treble quite a way up too, to catch the beater. Then I pull the channel gain/trim down far enough to compensate for the extra gain the EQ boosts are making.

With three-band channel EQ I cut the midrange a lot (how much depends on center frequency and width/Q of circuit, and then boost the low band and the treble band to the point where the curve is accentuating the deisired frequencies and minimizing the un-needed ones as much as possible, again making sure the trim is down far enough to not distort from the net gain from EQ boosting.

[bobunit]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Gates are nice, but it's still wise to deal with the actual problems first, by mic choice and positioning and stand isolation, drum tuning and damping, and selective EQing.

Agreed.