Mixer \ Soundboard on Stage or Off? Cable lengths & Fight between guitar & drums

[Tunaman]

Did a search to no avail so heres the issue

We have our PA with monitors ready to go (Except cables). We are a starting coverband likely to get small gigs in crappy bars with no PA... fine

Question is... should we have the mixing board on stage or off of stage run by the drummers dad who needs to be taught the board

Guitar says keep it close to us, drummer wants it off. (He also wants to mic all his drums all the time ) I'm good either way but depending on which way we go it effects the cables I'm going to order soo The 2nd question is, if you do have a soundguy & the board is in front of the stage, how far away do you usually have it & what cable lengths should I get for mics, monitors, speakers? (Its a big order I dont want to screw it up!)

Thanks in advance its a really big help!
Mike

[Hellbastard]

Is the P.a going to be responsible for bands overall sound, or is the p.a just for vocals and ocassional keys?

[cableguy]

I prefer to have the board away from the stage with a soundman. Usually a 100ft snake will handle it. However if you are training a soundman that can change things. Do any of you have wireless so you can walk out and check the mix? I don't mind if the band I'm playing in runs the board from the stage as long as everyone can keep the same volume. Which is impossible with most guitarist so I prefer a soundman.

[seamonkey]

Off stage but hire a proper sound person. Could be a friend musician.

small bar could be 50ft 16x4 microphone snake
4 returns for:
1 for the mains, 1 for the monitors, 1 spare,
1 for the drummers personal monitor mix

[Tunaman]

Hell B: Mostly vocals, some guitar, some drums depending

Cableguy: I could snake in vox\guitars\drums but then I'd need to snake back speaker cables & feed to monitors, 100' runs on those in your experience? I do have a wireless which is why I'm not worried about having it on stage if we go that route.

Seamonkey: I'll put you down for 50' thanks! As for hiring, its probably a very low paying gig & the father in law will be at every gig so it may be a necessary evil

[KingRazor]

The ideal place for a sound board (from a sound man's perspective) would be right in the middle of the audience (assuming you could keep it safe...). Since that isn't possible often times...as close to it as you can get.

That way the guy mixing the band hears what the audience hears.

[uhdinator]

50' 16 channel snake with 4-8 sends will work fine.

Put amps on stage. That way you don't need long speaker cables. All mic's on stage go into snake box so 20-25 mic cables.

Send main mixer feed and mon sends down snake back to amps on side of stage.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Tunaman

...I could snake in vox\guitars\drums but then I'd need to snake back speaker cables & feed to monitors, 100' runs on those in your experience? I do have a wireless which is why I'm not worried about having it on stage if we go that route.

Just to be clear, if you have a sound guy out back, you can get snakes configured either way: With speaker-level returns, so that the amps stay in a big rack out back with the sound person and the rest of the electronics. Or, with line-level returns, so that the amps live in a small rack at side stage, and the speaker cable runs are shorter.

IME, if you're at the stage where you're packing all the gear in the backs of cars, the second kind is probably better, since it dictates that you'll break the electronics down into two smaller racks, instead of one really big one.

Oh, and where you put your wireless receiver is strictly a matter of choice. Have it on your amp, and snake the XLR back to the mixer. Do the same, but have it located in a side-stage amp rack. Or leave the receiver back with the sound guy, and let the little wireless transmitter on your bass do the heavy lifting...

...On second thought, maybe that last option isn't the best!

[Tunaman]

Guys, thanks so much!

Check out this for sale by me!
Rapco Power Snake 50-foot

Or something new like this
Pro Co SM1204FBQ50 (50') | Sweetwater.com

Stage snake. That will work!
Talked to the father in law & we are going to work with him... free soundman... its better than us doing it while playing right?

OOO OOO

Heres a great snake if the other one doesn't work out

http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/...ps-12x4x50.htm

Speakons!

[Tunaman]

Micing drums...
Is a sub necessary?
Small to medium sized clubs... i know, i know, screw micing the drums but the drummer is a bitch like that

[ggunn]

Using a "sound man" who doesn't know how to mix is likely going to be problematic. Running a sound board is like playing an instrument; one doesn't become accomplished at it after a couple of lessons. Like any other instrument, getting it to make a noise is easy, but making it sound good... not so much.

[Tunaman]

Great read on sub vs no sub

PA survey (subs or no subs)

Looks like it IS a sub for us
Damn this is expensive !

Sub, Crossover, Poweramp
EQ for Sub as well? yikes!

[seamonkey]

You'll be able to sell your bass rig now to put your bass into the FOH

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Tunaman

Talked to the father in law & we are going to work with him... free soundman... its better than us doing it while playing right?

maybe, maybe not.

i'll take no soundman over a bad soundman every time!

[Gearhead17]

Drum kits in small bars should be MINIMALLY miked. The drummer you describe that wants his ENTIRE kit miked is probably a LOUD player. I play with a loud drummer myself and there are many shows where the sound guy mikes the kick drum and maybe his toms. The cymbals and everything else cut right through the mix with no issue even with the PA going. If the drums are too loud in a bar, people will not hang around to listen to you.

[RickenBoogie]

+1 I'd leave the drums *mostly* OUT of the PA. Maybe the kick drum and one other "ambient" snare/hi-hat mic, but once you have the full kit in the PA, ALL levels go UP UP UP. It gets past the point of sounding good really fast.

[Rick Auricchio]

My two cents on the PA:

1. Be as stingy as possible when deciding what signals to add into the PA. Start with vocals and add only what is absolutely necessary. A PA system capable of amplifying the whole band will be large and cost more than all of your existing equipment put together. Typically this is overkill for most rooms.

Mike only the kick drum. (Even this can cause problems with the mix if not done properly.) Typically, the drum kit is plenty loud unless you're playing an outdoor gig. If your drummer can't accept not having his entire kit miked, look for a sensible drummer.

2. When adding a signal to the PA mix, one should be as stingy as possible with its spectral band. Use EQ to minimize the presence of that item in the mix. (For example, cut the low end on guitars to minimize interference with bass and vocals.) This is very important to keep everything from simply becoming a wash of noise.

3. Judicious use of expander/gates will cut stage noise from mikes. Compression will greatly improve vocals. Using these tools takes some training.

4. Subwoofers are often more trouble than you think, especially in most rooms. Even a single sub with amp, crossover and cables will fill half an SUV.


All of this takes a skilled operator to run properly. If you have a minimally-trained sound guy, just put vocals in the PA and call it a day.

[Floyd Eye]

Choices:

Board out front, 50' 16/4 snake ( 20' from the stage is fine)

Board on the stage, bunch of XLRs

If you are playing rock, you want subs. You want separate power amps for subs, mains and monitors. You want a crossover. You want a decent mixing console. Don't cheap out, you will kick yourself in the arse later if you do.

If the drummer's dad has never mixed before, you probably are better off doing it yourself from the stage. If he has a clue though, it will be infinitely easier on you NOT to have to run it from the stage. If he is willing to rehearse with you and your gear I see no reason not to make it easy on yourself and let him do it, especially if he is volunteering his services.

Incidentally, my drummer has a big double bass kit and we have always miked both kicks, both floor toms, both regular toms and the snare. It takes rehearsing with the gear all hooked up, but no one has ever complained about how we sound and bars are not likely to be filled with sound guys criticizing your mixing ability.

[Tunaman]

Thanks for all the love guys! Honestly I've read every post & did tons of searches for the info to get to this point.

Heres an update

I got FREE subs !

Also I spoke to the drummer who finally understands that only outdoor & really big venues will have micd drums!

Now its all about getting a few pieces of gear to round out the PA for those BIG gigs only... otherwise just vox through monitors

HERES MY "POTENTIAL" PA
PLEASE tell me where I'm going wrong!

Mixing board Out MONO Main Output L or R
to Crossover (DBX 223XS vs Behringer CX2310) Most likely Behringer for 25 hz high pass vs 40 hz high pass on DBX, 40 hz too early for kick drum
into Dual 31 band EQ (1 side mains, other side Powered monitors from AUX out) DBX EQ?
into Seismic Audio 12/4 or 16/8 snake (Mono mains, monitor & sub)
QSC RMX 2450 (two 8 ohm 15" Turbosound mains & other channel two 8 ohm Free subs) ON STAGE so I dont gotta buy 75' runs x 4 of speaker cables

What I screw up?

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by Tunaman

Thanks for all the love guys! Honestly I've read every post & did tons of searches for the info to get to this point.

Heres an update

I got FREE subs !

Also I spoke to the drummer who finally understands that only outdoor & really big venues will have micd drums!

Now its all about getting a few pieces of gear to round out the PA for those BIG gigs only... otherwise just vox through monitors

HERES MY "POTENTIAL" PA
PLEASE tell me where I'm going wrong!

Mixing board Out MONO Main Output L or R
to Crossover (DBX 223XS vs Behringer CX2310) Most likely Behringer for 25 hz high pass vs 40 hz high pass on DBX, 40 hz too early for kick drum
into Dual 31 band EQ (1 side mains, other side Powered monitors from AUX out) DBX EQ?
into Seismic Audio 12/4 or 16/8 snake (Mono mains, monitor & sub)
QSC RMX 2450 (two 8 ohm mains & other channel two 8 ohm subs) ON STAGE so I dont gotta buy 75' runs x 4 of speaker cables

What I screw up?

Probably sound better if you used PA speakers.