Mixing sound-How can I hear myself and make everyone happy?

[Longstreet]

Howdy all. I'm a novice, been playing a Cirrus BXP at church for a year or so. We're having problems with mixing. At least I'm having problems with the mix!

I'm having a hard time hearing myself when we play. If I turn my bass/amp up so that I can clearly hear myself, lead guitar and sound both complain that I am too loud. Lead guitar says he can't hear himself, and sound complains that I'm maxing out the board. They turn me down, and I spend the time straining to hear myself play. In fact, at times I'm so low that no one in the seats can hear me either. (The other day we played a new song, and I screwed up the chorus. I remarked to my sons that I had done badly, and they said "Dad, no one out here noticed. We can't hear you!") It's getting to the point that I'm ready to drop out, but I hate to do that.

Is there any kind of headphone or earbud set up that I can plug in between the bass and the amp, right at my guitar jack? I'm thinking of something that would have it's own volume control, so I can let them set things where they're comfortable and I can still hear what I'm doing.

Sorry if this question has been asked before, but I didn't really even know what to search for. I'd ask the guys at Guitar Center, but they invariable point you to the most expensive solution in the store!

tia for any advice.


P.S. I saw the thread below mine "Novice amp and monitor questions", but I have to admit I'm not very knowledgeable about amps, speakers, etc. The replies in that thread were over my head by the 2nd or 3rd post.

[JustDavid]

What might help is to point your combo at your ears & away from everyone else: that will have you louder for yourself while likely reducing complaints from others.

From your post, I don't know if I'd steer you towards the soundperson for help: "maxing out the board" is fixable by a knob on the soundboard that's designed to deal with exactly that situation.

Lead Guitar might be a resource: do you think he'd be receptive & supportive if you asked him how you can hear yourself better while not blowing him away?

[Bassist4Life]

I've had EXACTLY the same issue before. There are a lot of factors and variables, but this is what we've done to fix the problem (at least for now).

We took the bass out of the house. The house hears what is coming from my amp. You'd be surprised how much your amp on stage fills the sanctuary. I didn't believe it, so I said to my buddy, "hey man, can you strap on my bass and play it while I go out and listen?"

I was shocked at how full my sound was in the house. I realized I needed some more treble in my sound so I had my buddy adjust my EQ until it sounded nice. I took note of the settings and I haven't had a problem since. Now, my wife tells me that she can hear me really well.

My amp is not facing directly out at the people. It is playing across the stage like a side monitor. I can hear it great and the house is full of my sound.

There are other things in the mix that seem to muddy things up. I find that the vocalists often have muddy vocals and need the lows cut a bit. Also, the guitar player sometimes has a thick sounds that intrudes on my sonic space.

I'm not an expert on acoustics, but I bet the size and shape of the room impact the overall sounds too. Some sound guys know how to make adjustments and what needs to be tweaked. Other guys just monitor overall volume.

I suggest getting out into the house to hear your bass. Make adjustments from there. Have some other ears available to validate what you're hearing or not hearing.

I feel your pain.

Peace,
Joe

[Steve]

Get your amp closer to you so you can hear it better.

That should solve the stage issue

Walk over to the console and look at the very top of your bass channel, chances are you will find a knob that says "gain". Show it to your sound guy and ask him to turn it down.

That should solve the "Maxing out the board" issue.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by Steve

Walk over to the console and look at the very top of your bass channel, chances are you will find a knob that says "gain". Show it to your sound guy and ask him to turn it down.

My thought is that if you have to show the person sitting at the soundboard where the "channel gain" control is, you should also show him the door.

[Stinsok]

Don't forget about sheer vanity on the guitar and keyboard player's end.....

[MNAirHead]

I JUST got over battling this.. brick domed room... Our primary singer said he couldn't hear me... same time gramma was crying in pain.

If going through a big amp (no PA) the sound would bounce around and sound out of time and out of phase.

I ended out trying about 15 amps.. practice amps.. preamps.. stadium rackmount rigs.. gig comobos youname it.

We settled on this setup

Active Bass => Passive DI => Board

then my monitor setup

Active Bass => Passive DI => Rolls PM351 => Headphones/ear buds

No amp.

It took about 4 hours to get it all dialed in.. with hot basses like our VFL Curruses found that going passive DI box was the best option to eliminate distortion.

I paid a sub to sit in and play my gear.. was a wierd thing.. he was saying he coulnd't hear himself as Gramma's ears were bleeding...

Most churches are meant for acoustic voice - not electric bass.

I've also found that most sanctuaries need deep scopped mids to balance..

I do appreciate that I'm not schlepping amps on a Sunday morning after late Saturday night.

Solved for about $200 between used and new gear.

Tim

PS.. I suggest the PM351 as you can put a microphone into it --- while getting used to the new setup, it is nice to have an "ambient" mike to catch drums and discussion. After getting used to it, I sing along into a Mike - this mike does not go to the board.. upshot is my singing and timing has gotten better.

PM me if I can be of service.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

My thought is that if you have to show the person sitting at the soundboard where the "channel gain" control is, you should also show him the door.

My though was, the second he said, "You're maxing out the board" he should be outside looking in.

That's about the most frightening that can come out of a soundguys mouth next to possibly, "Oh, you mean the doohickey needs to be plugged into one of those little hole thingies?"

[Rick in Dixie]

I think this has been a problem since the invention of the electric Bass. The fact is , your not going to make everybody else happy. The lead guitar player only wants to hear himself, and like wise with the keyboards, at least it seems that way. The acoustics of a church are usually brutal when it comes to getting a balanced sound. I set on a stool at my church right in front of my Amp with about 3 song books stuck under the front to tilt it back and sometimes I can't hear myself, but someone will always complain, and it's usually someone in the back of the church. I've had a little saying for the last 35 years, " If It's Too Loud....... Your Too Old". JustDavid has a good point, if a band member has to show the sound guy something on the board, the sound guy needs to be doing something else......... like passing the offering plate or being the door usher, lol.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Steve

My though was, the second he said, "You're maxing out the board" he should be outside looking in.

That's about the most frightening that can come out of a soundguys mouth next to possibly, "Oh, you mean the doohickey needs to be plugged into one of those little hole thingies?"

Agreed. Sounds like a classic case of Soundtechius Churchius Incompetus.

[Longstreet]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Good to see this board is pretty active!

Re the various solutions...

We tried moving the amp, as well as my position on the stage, with some success. I had been standing rear center stage, with my sound going through a simple active DI box to the console. Nobody liked that setup, so several weeks ago, we got rid of the DI and put a miked bass amp 3-4 feet right, pointing out. That worked better, but not great. I turned the amp to face me, and I was gold, but lead hated it as it was also pointed at him. I tried a set of earbuds plugged into the system in some fashion (I don't even know what to call the equipment used for that setup), but I really didn't hear myself any better, and on the songs where I sing it messed my timing up badly. Hugely frustrating.

A couple of weeks ago, I moved myself about 15 feet to the far right of the stage, left my amp where it was but turned it to face me, away from lead. That worked great for me, and I thought everyone else, but sound started complaining again, and lead started sneaking over and turning me down again. That last situation was what prompted my initial post.

Things were better this Sunday, perhaps because of a change in my equipment. The Cirrus isn't mine, but belongs to the church. It's a good guitar, but I'd been wanting my own, partly because I wanted one that was all mine, but also because it would be easier to get extra practice in at home. I don't have enough money to get something really good, but I'd been looking. My oldest boys had gone to Guitar Center Friday and found a Fury II in excellent shape for $90.00. I know, I know, it's no where near the bass that the Cirrus is, but it's ALL MINE, darn it, and I'm playing it! To my novice ears it sounds pretty good for an inexpensive single pickup instrument, but it seems to be a gentler sound, less peaky or bright (if those are the right words) than the Cirrus. Lead didn't have any complaints (at least not yet). I asked sound how it was, and he said I was only hitting max on a couple of notes on one song, which I think is more my playing than the equipment. I can still hear myself, and during the song service my wife smiled at me, gave me a thumbs up and mouthed the words "I can hear you today. Sounds good." So I came away from it feeling better about things. I'm going to keep tweaking though.

JustDavid, I've asked Lead Guitar for advice in the past, and he's extremely knowledgeable and talented, and usually very helpful. He's the one that suggested I move farther away from the amp, but he's also the guy that complains if I'm too loud, so...

Bassist4Life, I like the idea of taking the bass out of house completely, and I think I'm going to try that next. I think I'll turn the mike to that amp off and have my 16 year old play a bit while my 17 y/o and I walk around the seating to see how things sound. I don't know if sound and lead will trust me being in charge of my own sound though. We'll see.

MNAirHead, I have to confess that much of your post is over my head. I do think I'm going to experiment with your setup though; the change to a passive DI intrigues me. I hadn't really thought about going in that direction. I had to Google PM351 to see what it was. Sure wish I had seen something like that way back when all this started.

Re all the comments about the sound guy, I've thought the same thing myself several times. If I'm maxing my channel, it should be an easy thing for him to fix up there! But to be fair, I get the impression he's almost as much a novice at his job as I am at mine. I'm gonna sneak up there before next practice and roll the gain on my channel back just a bit.

Don't forget about sheer vanity on the guitar and keyboard player's end.....

I had some things to say about that, but in the interests of charity, I'll leave it alone.

[RicPlaya]

Originally Posted by Longstreet

(The other day we played a new song, and I screwed up the chorus. I remarked to my sons that I had done badly, and they said "Dad, no one out here noticed. We can't hear you!").

Did anybody catch this? This is the key to the whole issue IMO. He can't be heard by the crowd eithier, so there is something wrong with the whole thing.

Longstreet, could the crowd hear you better micing the cab?

I bet if you dial in some more high's and more importantly mids on the channel on the board where you bass is plugged into, you will gain more clarity in the mix. It's not about low end as much as definition in the mix. Tell the guitars to take some lows out of their tone. If they don't listen (which is often the case) take it out at the board on their channel. You guys need to meet somewhere in the middle, you need more highs and mids, they need less.

I wouldn't mess with your gain on the channel, ask the sound guy if he has taken out all your mids and highs? If so tell him to put more back in...

Do you have subs in the PA system?

[OtterOnBass]

Here's the rub, you have to trust the sound guys for your sound out there. They're responsible for that, for good or bad, and when the congregation/audience have complaints they are the ones who handle it.

For you, I suggest a DI out to the board and leave the house sound to the 'specialists'. This leaves your amp as a monitor. Step one, turn down the low frequencies on your amp, they'll interfere with the house sound and can't be pointed because they're omnidirectional. Step two, tilt your amp back to point at your ears and aim it so that it points away from the crowd and any musicians who don't want it.

Now that your amp isn't contributing to the house sound, the tech can set the bass where it needs to be, unafraid of the stage sound spilling out where he can't control it.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

Here's the rub, you have to trust the sound guys for your sound out there. They're responsible for that, for good or bad, and when the congregation/audience have complaints they are the ones who handle it.

For you, I suggest a DI out to the board and leave the house sound to the 'specialists'. This leaves your amp as a monitor. Step one, turn down the low frequencies on your amp, they'll interfere with the house sound and can't be pointed because they're omnidirectional. Step two, tilt your amp back to point at your ears and aim it so that it points away from the crowd and any musicians who don't want it.

Now that your amp isn't contributing to the house sound, the tech can set the bass where it needs to be, unafraid of the stage sound spilling out where he can't control it.

This is good overall advice but it doesn't sound to me like this particular soundman is that advanced. Some remedial training for him may be required (i.e., "here is the GAIN KNOB and also the INPUT PAD"), before this particular situation gets much better. If the OP follows the advice above, there may very well be NO BASS in the house at all whereas now at least maybe a little is bleeding off the stage.

I have been in the situation before, in churches, of people saying, "looked like you were playing well but we couldn't hear a note". Even so far as, "were you plugged in"? Hard to stay motivated to serve with that kind of feedback.

[OtterOnBass]

Originally Posted by jaywa

This is good overall advice but it doesn't sound to me like this particular soundman is that advanced. Some remedial training for him may be required (i.e., "here is the GAIN KNOB and also the INPUT PAD"), before this particular situation gets much better. If the OP follows the advice above, there may very well be NO BASS in the house at all whereas now at least maybe a little is bleeding off the stage.

I have been in the situation before, in churches, of people saying, "looked like you were playing well but we couldn't hear a note". Even so far as, "were you plugged in"? Hard to stay motivated to serve with that kind of feedback.

I hear that, and I agree that the sound guy needs training like everyone else who puts the service together. But if you continue to do his job, he won't get better, and the sound will continue to be poor. Tell him about your new strategy of not bleeding stage sound, and that he needs to be the one to set the volume level of the bass. Ask the sound guy, how did my bass sound today? He'll start listening (hopefully). In the past, one sound guy turned me off because of stage volume and never bothered with me. Once I put it in his hands, things got better.

One thing that's helped me with my complaints about the service has been vacation days. Once every six weeks I am off, and somebody fills in (even the pastor's son's music teacher) or else they plan a quieter service without bass. When I'm in the crowd worshipping, it changes my perspective, and I realize what a privilege it is to be playing for worship. I'm not saying your complaints aren't valid, they are, but the personal frustration can be dealt with by changing your view on the situation. I'm much happier now with these forced vacations.

One way to bring up the idea of training the sound guy is sending him a link to this:
http://sft.sourceforge.net/

It's a simple feedback trainer that simulates adjusting different frequencies. It's not a complete guide, but it gets sound guys using their ears, not their eyes, to set levels. Tell him you found it online and it was so cool you thought he might like it and it could help him with his mad PA skillz. If he likes that, there are tons of links to educational material on Bill Fitzmaurice's forum:
http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/vi...0dddde5153ee19

[DeluxeRed]

Originally Posted by Longstreet

Lead guitar says he can't hear himself,

Maybe try to help the others hear themselves better instead hearing you less? How are they monitoring what they're hearing? If the guitar player has a combo pointed at his ankles, then moving that might fix his monitoring problem and allow you to boost up a bit.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

One thing that's helped me with my complaints about the service has been vacation days. Once every six weeks I am off, and somebody fills in (even the pastor's son's music teacher) or else they plan a quieter service without bass.

Wow, you only get every 6th week off? I've got it good then. I'm only on every other week usually, very rarely 3 weeks straight and then someone else covers for me at least 1 week.

And truthfully, my own situation has improved quite a bit regarding bass in the house. To the point now that some Sundays my wife says they have me so loud it's almost shaking the walls!

[Kirkowitz]

I had a few ideas to try.....

If you're using stage monitors, make sure the bass is out of them. Just use your amp for a monitor. +1 to whoever suggested taking bass out of the mains until you can get your stage volume issues sorted out.
Take a peek at the eq on the PA to be sure the soundman isn't unnecessarily boosting bass frequencies. Be sure to check your channel and the eq for the entire system
Try raising the amp off of the stage (on a chair or amp stand) Poorly constructed boomy stages can make the bass frequencies very troublesome.
Also check the eq on your bass, if it's an active circuit you could be unnecessarily boosting the bass frequencies by doing the old passive volume/tone- everything up to 10 routine.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by Longstreet

If I'm maxing my channel, it should be an easy thing for him to fix up there! But to be fair, I get the impression he's almost as much a novice at his job as I am at mine.

Long, it IS an easy thing for him to fix. It's actually easier than blaming someone else for a poor mix, & quite a bit quicker.

You may be a novice, but you are taking responsibility for your sound & are taking some good steps to improve it. Good job!!

[OtterOnBass]

Originally Posted by jaywa

Wow, you only get every 6th week off? I've got it good then. I'm only on every other week usually, very rarely 3 weeks straight and then someone else covers for me at least 1 week.

And truthfully, my own situation has improved quite a bit regarding bass in the house. To the point now that some Sundays my wife says they have me so loud it's almost shaking the walls!

It's a long story, starting with a group that wanted a worship service that was more interactive and included contemporary music. We (a sub-community within the church that included one band's worth of musicians) started it, gave up for lack or resources, then had a professional producer join the church and take up the reigns. So, we started a new service with all kinds of expensive toys and great ideas, trying to make the best of the gym (fifteen foot truss with drapes around the walls and carpet tiles that go up and down each week). It's been a learning experience. There haven't been heaps of musicians joining the new service's roster, so I played about half a year solid. Bassists aren't too common, and the ones we have are young and intimidated by the level of professionalism the music director expects. We were burned out (especially me) when he started instituting the forced vacations, and somehow he manages to fill the holes in our line-up.

I don't envy the sound guy. Everyone's trying to tell him what's wrong and every week it seems, the system has been reset or the Aviom monitors aren't working. The guitarist bought a wireless partly to try to do the sound guy's job, but I've been learning to let go and just ask leading questions between compliments. So far it works and things seem to get better all the time.

I hope that my story has been helpful to the Original Poster. I know I'm derailing the focus away from his technical questions.