Monitors - powered or passive?

don21480 · #1 10-10-2009, 11:38 AM

Hi guys - we use a Mackie 406m powered mixer. the main power amp goes into 2 PV PR12 8ohm speakers. The monitor channel runs daisy chained into 2 JBL 12" monitors and 2 Kustom 10" monitors with 1 JBL and 1 Kustom on each side. We run 2 vocal mics, 1 acoustic guitar thru the mains and add my bass to those thru the monitors. We never have any problem with the volume thru the mains. We seem to have a problem thru the monitors. The singer thinks we need to run the mains thru the Mackie and run the monitors thru another amp. The guitar player thinks we need more efficient/better quality monitors - the Kustoms were only $59 each new at MF - and the drummer threw out the idea of powered monitors. We rarely play for more than 100 people. We never mic the drums. Any advice?

Steve · #2 10-10-2009, 12:15 PM

Without knowing exactly what the problem with the monitors is (you didn't say),
it's been my experience that you have to spend a LOT of money on monitors if you want to effectively run bass through them at any kind of volume at all.

You can tell just by looking at the cabinet size that they won't put out much low end.

IMHO. YMMV.

don21480 · #3 10-10-2009, 12:16 PM

Oops - the problem with the monitors is that the singer/drummer/and guitar player don't think they are loud enough - with or without the bass flowing through them.

Munjibunga · #4 10-10-2009, 12:22 PM

At my age, powered monitors would be the way to go. JBL PRX 512's or 515's would be my choice. They're light, and you don't have to lug amps for them. I just switched to powered mains, and won't look back. We still have passive monitors, but at least I'm not lugging amps for the mains.

modulusman · #5 10-10-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

At my age, powered monitors would be the way to go. JBL PRX 512's or 515's would be my choice. They're light, and you don't have to lug amps for them. I just switched to powered mains, and won't look back. We still have passive monitors, but at least I'm not lugging amps for the mains.

The 515 is not really designed for use as a monitor. I own 4 of the 512ms and they work well as a monitor or for main speaker. To the OP you might also look at the QSC HPR and K series.

Steve · #6 10-10-2009, 02:29 PM

well then, since we're spending YOUR money....

Throw out your monitors.
Use your current mains as side fills
Buy powered mains. (I'm liking Mackie these days)

don21480 · #7 10-10-2009, 03:34 PM

Yeah, I was thinking at these prices shouldn't the powered ones be the mains!

Would it be worth trying more efficient and larger monitors (passive) before going hog wild with the money I don't have?

GregShadoan · #8 10-10-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by don21480

Yeah, I was thinking at these prices shouldn't the powered ones be the monitors!

Would it be worth trying more efficient and larger monitors (passive) before going hog wild with the money I don't have?

Yes, I beleive it would be. One important point is also, they should all be the same type. Also, having more than you need is helpful. Powering them properly will also go along way. So, instead of 2 type of monitors, get all one type. Bigger the better. Seperate power amps for them will also improve the situation dramaticly. A 1/3 octave eq for each mix will also allow for higher output. Then, as a nessaccary evil, you will have to upgrade your mixer, FOH speaker package, etc.. It never ends.

For the short term, you may want to match the two types up, rather than daisy chaning to unlike types together. Use one mix for the jbl's, and another mix for the kustoms. see if that helps.

don21480 · #9 10-10-2009, 03:58 PM

Greg - so have 4 of the same brand size etc monitors, so with 2 outputs from the Mackie I can still daisy chain them? Or in the short run, get 2 new nicer monitors and daisy chain them together and run the JBL's daisy chained together?

Basically I'm trying to power 4 monitors out of 2 outputs and want to be as efficient as possible.

GregShadoan · #10 10-10-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by don21480

Greg - so have 4 of the same brand size etc monitors, so with 2 outputs from the Mackie I can still daisy chain them? Or in the short run, get 2 new nicer monitors and daisy chain them together and run the JBL's daisy chained together?

Basically I'm trying to power 4 monitors out of 2 outputs and want to be as efficient as possible.

Yes, well, basically, I would look to get two more of the larger monitors, the 12" jbls, and treat them all the same. 2 per mix. Mis matching the monitors is not a good idea.

If you have no budget, I would seperate the two diff types and use them seperatly. Use the 2 jbls on one amp ch(mix) and the two kustoms on the other. That way at least there will be some consistancy. If possible though, use the same type. I would ditch the kustoms, and get two more jbls the exact same as what you have, if I were you. Fleet ownership.

don21480 · #11 10-10-2009, 04:46 PM

Thanks - thats the path I will travel! Wanna buy some small Kustoms ;>)

GregShadoan · #12 10-10-2009, 04:53 PM

Craigs list them.

MNAirHead · #13 10-10-2009, 08:14 PM

solid state guitar amps work well for monitors if you only need them to monitor and don't have tone snobs.

konodl18 · #14 10-15-2009, 06:26 PM

So if I read everything right you are powering 2 main cabinets off the main channel on the mixer and all 4 monitors on the monitor channel? according to the specs I looked up that is ok as far as the mixer's amp being safe to run at 2 ohms. (8 ohm monitors x 4). The issue I see is that @ 2 ohms the amp puts out 250 watts. Divided into 4 monitors gives you only 62.5 watts into each wedge, give or take. That's not a lot of power at all. Especially if you are trying to pump your bass through them. If I mis-read the OP I apolgize in advance.

Derek

don21480 · #15 10-15-2009, 07:06 PM

Derek - you read correctly and looking at it that way I see why it might not be enough. I'm thinking 2 powered monitors and 2 passive ones or a larger capacity powered mixer?

konodl18 · #16 10-16-2009, 11:55 AM

Power Amplifier Section:

Maximum Power at 1% THD, midband
(both channels driven)

2 ohms: 250W x 250W per channel

4 ohms: 200W x 200W per channel

8 ohms: 125W x 125W per channel

2 ohms: 500W total

If you were to get 2 powered monitors and run just 2 passives off the monitor channel on the mackie you would get 200 watts into the 4 ohm load and each wedge would be getting about 100 watts. This should give you a little more snot out of them and then the powered wedges would only be limited by how much $ you spend and what power/quality they are.

Hope this helps,
Derek

don21480 · #17 10-16-2009, 03:04 PM

Derek

that is a huge help - thanks for taking the time to track down the info for me. We really only need a total of 3 monitors so I can buy 1 good quality powered monitor and keep rockin!

Don

don21480 · #18 10-18-2009, 08:16 PM

How many watts do I need for the powered monitor - 200?

GregShadoan · #19 10-18-2009, 08:29 PM

I still think this mixing and matching thing is a bad idea.
YMMV..

don21480 · #20 10-19-2009, 05:46 AM

Well, its normal for the mains and the monitors to be different - in my case two 8 ohm matched Peavey mains and two 8 ohm matched JBL monitors. The mixer has a monitor out for a monitor amp so the powered monitor should not be a factor and not need to match the other 2 monitors. Where is the mixing and matching you are concerned about?