My (admittedly short) experience with church sound

[KingRazor]

I've been doing sound for my church for about 3 years now.

I've talked to people here in the live sound forum a bit and shared my opinions about things such as drum cages, and IEMs and such.

Yesterday me and the other sound guys at my church made a trip up to Puyallap Washington to visit a church and talk to their sound guy. He's been doing sound since it was all tube amps and analog boards. We got to watch him mix for a worship service, pick his brain about things, it was a good experience.

I've realized something about a church's mentality regarding sound people: they expect you to make it sound good, regardless of who is up there and playing/singing. If it sounds bad, it's our fault.

So, because they expect us to be completely responsible for the sound, we have to be given complete control of the sound. We need to be able to make the band silent or super loud whenever we need to.

And that is why I advocate things such as amp-less stages and drum cages. Stage noise is our #1 enemy. We are constantly fighting it. And it doesn't matter how quiet the guitar players and bassist make their amps, we are STILL fighting it.

You also have to remember that worship team members are usually volunteers. They aren't classically trained musicians. Music is not their career, and sometimes not even their favorite hobby. These people don't usually make music their life like some musicians. So really, you can only expect so much out of them.

I have been told time and time again on this forum things like "putting the band on IEMs and taking away their amps is preventing them from growing as musicians."

Well, if the musicians were able to turn down their amps anymore than they are, they would. The bass players at my church all try to run the amp on stage as quiet as possible, but in order to actually hear it, they have to turn it up to the point where it interferes with the mix (and that has to do with our room and our lack of acoustic treatment)

In fact let me stop for just a minute to clarify something: I am talking about my church, and other churches in my situation. Some of this will, obviously, not apply to other churches.

The drummer at my church learned to play drums at the church, she had never played before that. She's been playing for less than 3 years. She is more or less self taught. When she learned to play, she learned to beat the drums fairly hard. We've talked to her about volume and she absolutely gives an honest effort to control her volume. But it's a challenge for her. Because of this, the drums can completely over power the mix sometimes and all I can do is try to get her to quiet down. I move the faders on the board and they don't even change the volume level of the drums sometimes.

People also talk about the disconnect between the musicians and everything around them when they use IEMs. But in my own experience, the use of ambient mics can bring back most of that. Plus, you can actually hear everything!

Finally, the last thing is I hear people say that drums encased in plexi-glass sound terrible. All I can say to those people is that they need to drive up to Puyallap, Washington and visit Experience Church on a Sunday morning for their Dynamic service. Listen to those drums and tell me they don't sound good. When I was there, the drums sounded super-tight (in a good way) and they were HUGE. I loved it. Not only that but even though the kick was so high up that YOU COULD FEEL IT IN EVERY PART OF THE ROOM, it didn't over-power the mix at all. I could still hear everything else in the mix clearly.

So anyway, all of that is why I advocate amp-less stages, all musicians on IEMs, and caged drums. Thank you for reading.

[uhdinator]

I deal with a lot of churches and folks that are volunteer sound guys purchasing new gear and looking for advice. It's difficult and frustrating most of the time because:

Aesthetics are higher priority than audio quality. (can't have a big ugly floor monitor in the correct location because it looks bad)

The musicians or speakers have no experience with mic technique and are too far from the mic requiring high gain levels that cause feed back from the improper placed monitors.

Cathedrals are great for projecting voices, not so much for amplified systems. You try to explain acoustics and required treatment and speaker placement but aesthetics are more important yet good sound is desired and it's hard to convince that physics cannot be changed.

Due to challenges of the acoustics of large cathedrals it's very important to spend more and get the best gear.
Every church i've ever worked with of course wants everything cheap.

You can't put a lawn mower engine in a Lamborghini and expect performance!

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by uhdinator

I deal with a lot of churches and folks that are volunteer sound guys purchasing new gear and looking for advice. It's difficult and frustrating most of the time because:

Aesthetics are higher priority than audio quality. (can't have a big ugly floor monitor in the correct location because it looks bad)

The musicians or speakers have no experience with mic technique and are too far from the mic requiring high gain levels that cause feed back from the improper placed monitors.

Cathedrals are great for projecting voices, not so much for amplified systems. You try to explain acoustics and required treatment and speaker placement but aesthetics are more important yet good sound is desired and it's hard to convince that physics cannot be changed.

Due to challenges of the acoustics of large cathedrals it's very important to spend more and get the best gear.
Every church i've ever worked with of course wants everything cheap.

You can't put a lawn mower engine in a Lamborghini and expect performance!

You speak the truth, my friend.

"You can't put a lawn mower engine in a Lamborghini and expect performance!"

In our case it's like putting a lamborghini engine in a lawn mower (we have a $10,000 sound board playing through $1200 speakers).

[Bredian]

Except for my bass, everything else I'm playing with is acoustic.... piano, horns, drums, voices .... so all will have a stage volume level to deal with, all will want and need to hear each other. Willing to try IEMs. Thinking more about investing in a dedicated preamp.

[bassWR]

You've hit on some of the key problems relating to churches and sound.
1. It is where non-pro musicians and non-pro sound engineers converge and try to deliver a professional product.
2. Guitarist consider the amp a part of their instrument.
3. Everybody has their own opinion based on their experience.
4. Agree with Uhdinator on mike technique. Training can improve the sound, make monitors easier to manage and make the sound guys life better.

So some ideas:

1. If your using a digital board invest in Aviom or a similar IEM product. This lets the musicians do their own monitor mix. Invest in custom fitted IEM's for the bass player & drummer with at least triple drivers. If they can spring for their own all the better.
2. In church it is almost essential to get the bass player to run direct. I personally hate it but it works. Bass is non-directional and hard to manage in a church where your trying to control overall volumne. See Idea 1.
3. Drums in the enclosure can work. Better fully enclosed. Key elements: quality mikes, proper mike placement, good dampening not muffling.
4. Guitar players....,Lord love em. There are some good amp emulators, both pedal type and computer software you can use. We put the amps in enclosures and mike them. Cleans up the stage appearance too.
5. We use a combo of IEM's and the big ugly (good) monitors. I wish we could get the singers to use IEM's but that ain't likely.

Whatever solutions you use make them a colaborative effort. Going to see what other folks are doing is a good idea. You'll find no 2 churches do the same thing. Take a musician or 2 with you next time.

Church sound is tough. There is a broad spectrum of listeners (8 to 80+) with there own opinion of what is good. Come Monday they don't mind calling the office and share their "concerns".
Being the sound guy is thankless but when you do a good job it enhances ministry, makes the staff's life easier and helps reach folks for Christ.

As a bass player, thanks to all you sound guys who put up with the musicians, congregations and ministers.
Wow, that went on longer than I thought.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by bassWR

You've hit on some of the key problems relating to churches and sound.
1. It is where non-pro musicians and non-pro sound engineers converge and try to deliver a professional product.
2. Guitarist consider the amp a part of their instrument.
3. Everybody has their own opinion based on their experience.
4. Agree with Uhdinator on mike technique. Training can improve the sound, make monitors easier to manage and make the sound guys life better.

So some ideas:

1. If your using a digital board invest in Aviom or a similar IEM product. This lets the musicians do their own monitor mix. Invest in custom fitted IEM's for the bass player & drummer with at least triple drivers. If they can spring for their own all the better.
2. In church it is almost essential to get the bass player to run direct. I personally hate it but it works. Bass is non-directional and hard to manage in a church where your trying to control overall volumne. See Idea 1.
3. Drums in the enclosure can work. Better fully enclosed. Key elements: quality mikes, proper mike placement, good dampening not muffling.
4. Guitar players....,Lord love em. There are some good amp emulators, both pedal type and computer software you can use. We put the amps in enclosures and mike them. Cleans up the stage appearance too.
5. We use a combo of IEM's and the big ugly (good) monitors. I wish we could get the singers to use IEM's but that ain't likely.

Whatever solutions you use make them a colaborative effort. Going to see what other folks are doing is a good idea. You'll find no 2 churches do the same thing. Take a musician or 2 with you next time.

Church sound is tough. There is a broad spectrum of listeners (8 to 80+) with there own opinion of what is good. Come Monday they don't mind calling the office and share their "concerns".
Being the sound guy is thankless but when you do a good job it enhances ministry, makes the staff's life easier and helps reach folks for Christ.

As a bass player, thanks to all you sound guys who put up with the musicians, congregations and ministers.
Wow, that went on longer than I thought.

Good points. We're working on all 5 of them (budget has limited us from some of them).

The bass goes direct already, and the drummer and keyboard players are on IEMs (although our current way of doing IEMs could certainly be better).

[MNAirHead]

I'm a worship leader --- in a lucky spot as I have to focus more on production and qualtiy than babysitting and content.

I'll add 4 of the biggest lessons I've learned.

1-Politics
Unless a worship sound guy understands the complexity of a congregatiopn, they're normally in a bad spot. I will not accept any positions that don't allow me to quantify "Joyful noise"

2-RTA (or DB meter)
Beg borrow or steal a method to quantify "too loud" or "too quiet"

3-Studio Sound
The entire act will sound awful until someone understands worship sound is closer to studio sound than club gigs.

4-"I May Be Wrong"
By far, this the toughest to teach... musicians notoriously will hear from their shoes, vs the audeince position.... sound is affected by the room... churches notoriously break the "sound commandments"

I will not play or hire anyone who doesn't understand band mix and common courtesy.

Tim

ONLY major correction I could make to the "All DI" would be to eliminate acoustic drums... when VDrums are so affordable, it's silly not address where most of the sound battle begins.... it's the rare drummer than can pull off acoustic drums in a worship setting.

[singlemalt]

It starts with the snare drum and goes downhill from there. Unless you have jazz cat with brushes and great dynamics on the drums. ( and they aren't known for showing up early on Sunday morning) the drums set the minimum level and you are already too loud.

Cavern like rooms sure don't help either.

I have to agree with the V drum idea or a cage, but like you said, it needs to be visually pleasing, cage or space ship? Meh...

Getting control of the stage volume is key. It also is a sound guy's fantasy, good luck with that. Good luck with that!

[MNAirHead]

I've had less than optimal bonuses from a acrylic shield...

VDrums can be masked very easy.

Tim

[Staccato]

We have IEM's for the vocalists, and headphones for the musicians.

DI + headphones without stage monitors (no amps) can be a worthwhile solution. We have free standing monitors or amps on stage!

The players can hear themselves, and the other instruments that are mic'd or connected to a DI. Ours is a medium sized church w/ drums, baby grand, (1) acoustic/electric guitar, (1) electric guitar, (1) electric bass, and (1) violin. There's separate DI boxes for the bass & 2 guitars, and mikes on all the rest (multiple mikes on the drumset).

The challenges that the OP spoke of-also-include lowering the level of some mikes with respect to others, or removing (cutting) certain mikes from the mix for some songs, or portions of the service.

[pudgychef]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

ONLY major correction I could make to the "All DI" would be to eliminate acoustic drums... when VDrums are so affordable, it's silly not address where most of the sound battle begins.... it's the rare drummer than can pull off acoustic drums in a worship setting.

this is the thought I had reading through the first few posts....well that and Gee...music in church should be a joyful thing......you would think it would be the one musical setting where egos are put aside in favour of the whole...

[Dave the Bass]

At my church, everyone is on IEMs. We use a wired system with a separate soundman and monitor console at the side of the stage, everything except guitars are DI. Our guitarists tend to use small, low-wattage tube combos, 15 watts or less, they sit facing backwards behind a heavy curtain at the back of the stage where they are mic'ed with Sennheiser e609s and an acoustic baffle in front of the speaker. This isolates them very effectively from the rest of the room and we get very little bleed into FOH. Drums are fully mic'ed and caged.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

ONLY major correction I could make to the "All DI" would be to eliminate acoustic drums... when VDrums are so affordable, it's silly not address where most of the sound battle begins.... it's the rare drummer than can pull off acoustic drums in a worship setting.

I'd love to have a good Vdrum kit instead of acoustic ones for this setting, but it's hard to convince people that they sound as good as acoustic drums.

[SteveC]

We have no stage amps.
We have 6 monitor sends - we use wedges but IEM's aren't practical right now.
We have electronic drums.
We have enough people with "pro" experience to make the system (which is pretty good all things considered) sound good...now if everyone else would leave it alone on alternate Sunday's...

[KingRazor]

At my church, out of the 14 members of the worship team, maybe 3 of them are classically trained. The rest of them are self-taught and/or learned tips from other members of the team. None of them are currently working musicians.

The sound team currently has 3 members, including me. None of us have had any professional training whatsoever.

In spite of all that, it can sound pretty good on Sunday mornings.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

At my church, out of the 14 members of the worship team, maybe 3 of them are classically trained. The rest of them are self-taught and/or learned tips from other members of the team. None of them are currently working musicians.

We are fortunate. Of the instrumentalist that play on a regular basis, all have had some post high school music education. The "A list" band is all music performance or ed majors who also play in a combination of jazz and funk bands outside of church and are employed in the music industry via retail or education. It's a pretty tight group.

[WayneP]

Originally Posted by bassWR

3. Drums in the enclosure can work. Better fully enclosed. Key elements: quality mikes, proper mike placement, good dampening not muffling.

Why not just require the drummer to use hot rod sticks? My son uses them in the little Baptist church he attends, and he blends perfectly without a shield.

We know the musicians at a church my wife and I attend regularly, and we noticed in a recent service that the drummer was too loud despite the presence of a shield. We’ve known this drummer for a long time; he’s first-class and has great dynamic control. Yet, he was too loud. We mentioned the situation after the service while we were all chatting.

The following week we attended again, and this week the drummer had switched to hot rods (despite not particularly liking them, but he’s a good sport and a team player, not a prima donna). Now, the drums were being drowned out by the rest of the band! Clearly the “ticket” for them will be to use hot rods, and then mic the drums to blend them with the rest of the group. But the point is that hot rods got the drums under control.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[MNAirHead]

Razor

1-have you bought and read the yamaha book yet?

2-rules/guidelines.... I was in your battle for a long time... Then one day took the time to write up a set of guidelines and expectations - made the world of difference - it covers all aspects of what is expected from players and leaders. Outlines acceptable gear (supplied) and how our sound is produced.

Sure folks complained for 2 weeks - then the tithing congregation took notice of the improvement

Some of the arrogant players had to go "my tone is from my2-12 5150" didnt make the cut, the line6 x3 did

Now it's super simple players enter an established and proven system

[KingRazor]

I'm not really in the position to do something like that. I'm not allowed to tell the band what to do. They're at the same level of authority as me. It's the Worship Pastor who makes the rules. Her and her husband (band leader/lead guitarist/lead male vocalist) decide things like what gear to use.

I put several books on my Christmas list, including the Yamaha book.

[MNAirHead]

Writing it all down is your first step _ if you plan on being in worship production, it's an ideal time to learn benevolent leadership