My church got a new powered mixer -- questions after the jump...

[Cloverfield]

Okay, so my church just got a new powered mixer, a Yamaha 5014c whose maximum output is currently set to 200w at 4 ohms, and guess who's been tasked with hooking everything up (and by that I mean going back over everything after it's already been poorly done)? This guy.

I have a couple of questions/situations that hopefully those of you who know more about live sound than I do can answer. Here we go:

1) There's a special room outside of the main auditorium where folks can go with their children if they're being obnoxious and still hear the message/music. Inside this room is a mounted Galaxy Audio Micro Spot VC monitor. I have this speaker connected to the second auxiliary output, and I have pertinent channels' Aux 2 volume controls set to pre-fader. I can get a nice level coming through the monitor when I send the CD player sent to it (although I still feel like it should be louder), but I have to absolutely crank the wireless mic's Aux 2 volume the pastor uses and even then it's very quiet coming through the monitor. Oh, and I have the monitor's volume set to the maximum. I'm reading descriptions of this Galaxy Audio speaker monitor online, and everyone keeps talking about how loud it is (or how loud it can be). What am I doing wrong here?

2) When I play the CD player channel through the main speaker (I have the main auditorium speaker hooked up to either the Left or Right speaker output in the Stereo-image pair on the back of the mixer), there's a sort of hiss coming through, sort of a grainy feedback-type sound in the background that's only there when the CD player chanel's fader is actually brought up and given some volume. The preamp is set stupidly low, about 9 o'clock, and the knob turns from about 7:30-4:30. I'm not doing any EQ on the CD player's channel; everything is set flat.

[john m]

For starters--- the (powered) monitor should be hooked up to the Aux 2 OUTPUT.

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by john m

For starters--- the (powered) monitor should be hooked up to the Aux 2 OUTPUT.

Oops. I meant output. Sorry. I'm tired. It has been properly edited.
And the Galaxy Audio monitor isn't powered. (?)

[Bufalo]

If the monitor isn't powered and you're just sending a line level signal to it, well that would explain why it's not very loud. It would some kind of amplifier to get some volume.

[modulusman]

The link you posted for the monitor shows 117 db at a half meter which I believe is about 19-20 inches. It is designed to be loud up close. You get about 10 feet away and you will start having a hard time hearing it. Wrong tool for the application.

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by Bufalo

If the monitor isn't powered and you're just sending a line level signal to it, well that would explain why it's not very loud. It would some kind of amplifier to get some volume.

So to remedy this I would simply connect the monitor to one of the main speaker outputs on the back instead of the Aux 2 output in order to send the monitor speaker level instead of line level, correct? Would the speaker be able to handle that though? I believe the console is putting out 200w at 4 ohms, and the speaker says it's rated for 100w at 16 ohms.

Originally Posted by modulusman

The link you posted for the monitor shows 117 db at a half meter which I believe is about 19-20 inches. It is designed to be loud up close. You get about 10 feet away and you will start having a hard time hearing it. Wrong tool for the application.

It's unusually quiet for 19-20 inches away even, my friend. The room we're talking about is probably only 10 feet in length.

[WayneP]

Originally Posted by Cloverfield

So to remedy this I would simply connect the monitor to one of the main speaker outputs on the back instead of the Aux 2 output in order to send the monitor speaker level instead of line level, correct?

Correct, but only if you have a way to independently control the volume level sent to the monitor.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by WayneP

Correct, but only if you have a way to independently control the volume level sent to the monitor.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

Well, there's a volume knob on the actual monitor. Would this work / count as an independent control?

[WayneP]

Yes it could! You just have to keep in mind that if there is only one master volume control from the mixer, any change you make to it will also be sent to the monitor.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[Cloverfield]

Wayne,

Any insight regarding my second problem?

[WayneP]

Hmm, curious... You aren’t sending the CD to the mic inputs are you?
Typically the gain for CD players is set all the way down, or nearly all the way down. You might try using one of the regular inputs (ch. 1-6) to see what that gets you (use the 1/4" jacks). I guess it’s always possible that the player could have a problem. Maybe try a different one to verify.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[Jools4001]

First, make sure that you've got the mic and the cd player channels using the right input. The CD player will almost certainly have a line level output, I'm not sure about the wireless mike - the receiver may provide either a mic or line level. Then make sure that you've got the gain set right for the appropriate channels - a quick and dirty way is to push the faders up to 0db, then turn the gain up until the peak light flashes intermittently. Now that you've normalised the input levels, you can set the master level to the appropriate volume and balance the various channels to your taste on the faders for the mains and the Aux 2 knob for the err...Aux 2, funnily enough. push the Aux 2 fader up and check that the sound sources you want are balanced (don't worry about the overall volume at the moment).

The signal you're sending to the Aux 2 output should be line level when the fader is set to 0db, so with the Galaxy volume set to max it should be giving max volume at this point. If it's not giving max volume, check that you've got a good connector lead that is not attenuating the signal in some way and I also notice that you can set the limiter on the Aux 2 channel so you might want to check that's not limiting the Aux 2 output in an unintended way

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by WayneP

Hmm, curious... You aren’t sending the CD to the mic inputs are you?
Typically the gain for CD players is set all the way down, or nearly all the way down. You might try using one of the regular inputs (ch. 1-6) to see what that gets you (use the 1/4" jacks). I guess it’s always possible that the player could have a problem. Maybe try a different one to verify.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

I believe I'm sending the CD player to either Channel 11/12 or 13/14. It's a stereo channel, and I'm using the line jacks, which are RCA pin jacks on those channels.
Wouldn't using the 1/4" jacks on one of the mic inputs 1-6 destroy the stereo imaging that a CD player gives? And those 1/4" jacks are TRS phone-type line input jacks. Would that be okay? I don't know much about all this. Sorry.

And yeah, if I can't figure this out, my next move will be to try a different CD player out and troubleshoot that way.

Originally Posted by Jools4001

First, make sure that you've got the mic and the cd player channels using the right input. The CD player will almost certainly have a line level output, I'm not sure about the wireless mike - the receiver may provide either a mic or line level. Then make sure that you've got the gain set right for the appropriate channels - a quick and dirty way is to push the faders up to 0db, then turn the gain up until the peak light flashes intermittently. Now that you've normalised the input levels, you can set the master level to the appropriate volume and balance the various channels to your taste on the faders for the mains and the Aux 2 knob for the err...Aux 2, funnily enough. push the Aux 2 fader up and check that the sound sources you want are balanced (don't worry about the overall volume at the moment).

The signal you're sending to the Aux 2 output should be line level when the fader is set to 0db, so with the Galaxy volume set to max it should be giving max volume at this point. If it's not giving max volume, check that you've got a good connector lead that is not attenuating the signal in some way and I also notice that you can set the limiter on the Aux 2 channel so you might want to check that's not limiting the Aux 2 output in an unintended way

Wow. That was a lot of info. Thanks!
I will certainly check and try all of this next time I'm over there.

[WayneP]

Originally Posted by Cloverfield

I believe I'm sending the CD player to either Channel 11/12 or 13/14. It's a stereo channel, and I'm using the line jacks, which are RCA pin jacks on those channels.
Wouldn't using the 1/4" jacks on one of the mic inputs 1-6 destroy the stereo imaging that a CD player gives?

Only if you’re running the PA system in stereo. PA’s should not be run in stereo anyway...

And those 1/4" jacks are TRS phone-type line input jacks. Would that be okay?

The 1/4" jacks will accept TRS or TS. To plug the CD player into those jacks, you’d need RCA -> TS cables.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by WayneP

Only if you’re running the PA system in stereo. PA’s should not be run in stereo anyway...

The 1/4" jacks will accept TRS or TS. To plug the CD player into those jacks, you’d need RCA -> TS cables.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

Hmm... I'm not running it in stereo, so I guess it doesn't matter... If I can find one of those adapters around here I'll definitely try that then.

[Vinny D]

Just making a few quick observations on the EMX5014C, if you download the spec. sheet and look at the output rated power...
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downlo..._datasheet.pdf
It is only 125w @ 4ohms, so just roughly guessing it would probably be right around 40-50watts @ 16ohms.
It has very little power to drive the monitor you have listed, as the monitor itself is not all that effecient.
It probably would be much better if you could find a little bit better monitor and something that is at least 8ohms.

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by Vinny D

Just making a few quick observations on the EMX5014C, if you download the spec. sheet and look at the output rated power...
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downlo..._datasheet.pdf
It is only 125w @ 4ohms, so just roughly guessing it would probably be right around 40-50watts @ 16ohms.
It has very little power to drive the monitor you have listed, as the monitor itself is not all that effecient.
It probably would be much better if you could find a little bit better monitor and something that is at least 8ohms.

Wait. I'm confused. The Maximum Output Switch on the console has three options: 500watts at 4 Ohms, 200watts at 4 Ohms, and 75watts at 4 Ohms. I see on the Spec. sheet where it says 125watts at 4 Ohms. Help me reconcile this in my mind. (Like I said, I have close to no live sound experience before this. Thanks.)

[Vinny D]

Originally Posted by Cloverfield

Wait. I'm confused. The Maximum Output Switch on the console has three options: 500watts at 4 Ohms, 200watts at 4 Ohms, and 75watts at 4 Ohms. I see on the Spec. sheet where it says 125watts at 4 Ohms. Help me reconcile this in my mind. (Like I said, I have close to no live sound experience before this. Thanks.)

It's called marketing
See how much more attractive that powered mixer looks like when they post *PEAK* power ratings.
You have to really take a look at the specs. when you are looking for the actual power rating of amplifiers.
Always look for *continuous/nominal* or *RMS* output power, that is how much power the amplifier really has.

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by Vinny D

It's called marketing
See how much more attractive that powered mixer looks like when they post *PEAK* power ratings.
You have to really take a look at the specs. when you are looking for the actual power rating of amplifiers.
Always look for *continuous/nominal* or *RMS* output power, that is how much power the amplifier really has.

So if I want to get at least a bit more power out of the amp, I should probably switch the Maximum Output Switch to the max setting then, right? That might help with the monitor...

[Cloverfield]

Also, looking at the specs sheet on the Yamaha 5014c: How in the world can the peak wattage rating be 500watts at 4 ohms but only put out a nominal output level of 125watts?! I feel like in my experience with bass amps, etc. that the RMS ouput versus the peak rating is usually a much higher percentage than 125/500. Explain!