Need help fixing my live sound, lot of questions

FunkyDoesIt · #1 06-08-2009, 05:18 PM

Hey guys!

I joined a new band lately, and I was happy to know that we would always practrice in a bar since the drummer is the owner of that bar. So everytime we practice, we do it fully micked, drum include. Previoulsy, I've always been practicing unmicked in little rooms with horrible acoustic, and I never ran into major sound problems since everything was souding sh*tt*...

But turns out nobody in that band seams to have descent soundman skills... I never ran into those problem before since there were always a soundman to fix my sound before I play. I think now is the time for me to learn to set things up a little bit.

I'm playing a MusicMan Stringray 5, on a Gallien-Krueger 1001RB2 amp and Gallien Krueger 410RBH cab. The owner doesn't want bass signal through the monitors so my sound on stage is from my cab. Signal is Post-EQ from the amp, no effect chain. ( I have an Aphex Punch Factory compressor that I could use if you think it would help, but I honestly don't know where to put it, FX loop or direct)

I'm unable to describe what is wrong with my sound... it's just horrible, excepted from the sound comming from my cab, who is Ok. From the house's speakers, it's almost impossible to hear the bass, excepted for the lows and high mids who seems boosted... Even though I almost can't hear myself, the house's amp clipped a few times....

I've been trying differents setup both on bass and amp and I just can't get a sound I like from the house speaker... Is the problem coming from me or from the house... Should I crank up the volume on the bass or let it lower and only crank the amp? Should I try a DI instead of my amp?

I know it could be a lot of thing, but I think you could give me a hand into solving this and get a sound that will help me be happy again!

Stinsok · #2 06-08-2009, 05:23 PM

I know what you are going through. It's tough to mix and play (and do either worth a crap.) With ever increasing onstage volume it's hard to keep up. I bought a snake and will hire someone on the bigger gigs.

FunkyDoesIt · #3 06-08-2009, 06:36 PM

Some advices other than hiring a professional?:P

Where does your signal come from? DI or amp? Post or Pre EQ? Is there some ''basic'' EQ I could start from to give me a chance?

How bout your volume setting? Does it change the sound to crank up the volume on the bass instead of on the amp?

OtterOnBass · #4 06-08-2009, 09:11 PM

Try taking the DI pre-EQ instead of post. The PA speakers have a flatter response than the bass cabinet, so the EQ that makes your cab sound awesome is overwhelming the PA. The pre-EQ Direct sound should be set differently from the cab.

At home, or wherever you have the PA, turn off the bass cab and just work on the PA sound. Start with a flat EQ, then from low to high adjust. Now go back the other way, remembering that the mids are what cut through the sound of the whole band playing, giving the bass more distinction.

As for volume, I recommend always leaving the bass volume all the way up. This gives the strongest signal to the amp and PA, and lets you come back to the same volume each time you turn the volume all the way off. Changing the volume on the bass changes the tone, losing highs as you get softer. Changing the volume on the amp shouldn't change the tone (except tube amps and when you push the speaker too far).

modulusman · #5 06-09-2009, 12:19 AM

Do you know what kind of PA you are playing through? If it is a POS that could be half your problem.

Steve · #6 06-09-2009, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

Try taking the DI pre-EQ instead of post. The PA speakers have a flatter response than the bass cabinet, so the EQ that makes your cab sound awesome is overwhelming the PA. The pre-EQ Direct sound should be set differently from the cab.

At home, or wherever you have the PA, turn off the bass cab and just work on the PA sound. Start with a flat EQ, then from low to high adjust. Now go back the other way, remembering that the mids are what cut through the sound of the whole band playing, giving the bass more distinction.

As for volume, I recommend always leaving the bass volume all the way up. This gives the strongest signal to the amp and PA, and lets you come back to the same volume each time you turn the volume all the way off. Changing the volume on the bass changes the tone, losing highs as you get softer. Changing the volume on the amp shouldn't change the tone (except tube amps and when you push the speaker too far).

All of that^

What you describe is the classic problem when you send a signal to the sound board that is referenced through a bass cabinet.

Send the console an clean, strong, unprocessed signal or mic the cab.

RicPlaya · #7 06-09-2009, 02:11 PM

Or stick a 57 or BD mic in front of your cab, run the channel on the board flat. One thing is the FOH when you DI will not have your tone from the cab. If you can blend the FOH tone (def go pre EQ on the DI) and cab tone and get a good overall sound then that's great. If you love your cab tone and want that sound mic your cab.

FunkyDoesIt · #8 06-09-2009, 06:54 PM

Is it as simple as you guy say to mic the cab? I thought it was a bit complicated to get a good sound when your not use at micking things... Will I end with more sound problem (+ money problem after buying a good mic) after micking if I don't know much what I'm doing?

RickenBoogie · #9 06-10-2009, 05:38 PM

Try the pre eq DI first, but a Shure SM57 is only about 100 bucks, plus a cable, and short stand, so 200 bucks altogether. Place the mic in the center of a speaker cone. But, try the pre eq DI first, I bet that does it.

Steve · #10 06-10-2009, 06:16 PM

IT's not difficult to mic a cab although, I would start with the mic about an inch in from the surround and not in the center of the speaker. You can move it around the change the tonal quality to what's best to your ears.

I really think your FOH issue is more related to the engineer than the method.
If the DI out on your GK is anything like the DI out on the old RB series amps...those things sound GREAT. Especialy with a music man bass. You should be able to pre effect out straigh into the console and have it sound excellent.

(b)Assman · #11 06-15-2009, 07:35 PM

It could be that you're head is too powerful for those 4 speakers. I have a 750 watt head, and when I used it with a 410 cab it sounded like absolute crap if I tried to turn it up loud enough to cut through guitars and what not. I upgraded to a 610, that's more dispersing of wattage over speakers, more surface area and it doesn't stress the speakers giving it that horrible midrangy burp that 10" seem to have when they are pushed to their limits. Other than that, I can't really help you other than telling you to mess around with speaker placement and EQ settings.

TimmyP · #12 06-21-2009, 08:53 PM

If you can't get a good sound with a DI (I like the Pro48), you aren't going to get a good sound with a mic - especially an SM57. If you want an affordable mic that's good for a bass cabinet (and just about anything else), get a used D4. If you have bucks to spend, get a used PR40 or AT4050.

**Stumbo** · #13 06-22-2009, 01:25 AM

Try using a long cord or wireless so you can go FOH to hear how everything sounds and make your adjustments to the PA then.

+1 on the D.I. or Pre-e.q.

Here are some links you may want to take a look at:

~PA
What size?
First
Configuring
1 Upgrading
2

~Mixing/Recording rehearsals/gigs
Recording rehearsals/practice/gigs
Recording/Mixing

Cheap but good studio mics

Learn live sound mixing
Frequency ranges of band instruments
EQ primer (all instruments)

FOH vs. on-stage sound

You may want to check out the links in my sig. below for more good info that may help you out.

FunkyDoesIt · #14 07-09-2009, 09:49 PM

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. I finaly fixed my problem!

First, I used the pre-eq setting on my amp to feed the PA. That help me adjust my sound a little bit more freely for my cab. Then, I found the real problem.

Turns out that our ''Drummer/Sound-Tech'' guy doesn't like a descent bass sound. He thinks that Bass means Bass boost, almost no mids or highs. When I was try to adjust my sound, he would always mess up his EQ, explaining why I was unable to set things up...

When I discover that and asked him to adjust it my way, or a least a more conventionnal way, he did nothing untill I told him that if he wants that kind of bass, he's gonna play it by himself...

Looks like I'm gonna be searching for a new band soon.. :P

dougray · #15 07-11-2009, 09:56 PM

suggestion.. try a sansamp bass (or similar) di run your bass to that and out to the PA use the parallel out to your amp. try using different settings,on DI, never had a prob. good-luck.

TimmyP · #16 07-12-2009, 03:15 AM

IME (direct comparison) the DI out of a Radial J48 sounds better than the DI out of a SansAmp. I expect that the Pro48 sounds at least as good as a SA. Keep it simple - get a Radial (if the pre-EQ di out on your amp is not up to par).

Zooberwerx · #17 07-12-2009, 10:09 AM

1) Insert your compressor before your rig.

2) +1 on the pre-EQ DI signal. Post-EQ doesn't always translate well at the board.

3) Set your EQ foundation at the board while playing solo. Most mixing boards have individual channel EQ's, some even have semiparametric EQ's to remove trash from the mid's. This will require addt'l modification once the entire band is up to volume.

Riis

AndyLES · #18 07-13-2009, 12:05 AM

Doesn't like bass in the monitors?

Sounds like whoever's running sound for you, um, doesn't know how to mix monitors (at least in such a manner as to not blow his drivers).

Hamrhed · #19 07-24-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyLES

Doesn't like bass in the monitors?

Sounds like whoever's running sound for you, um, doesn't know how to mix monitors (at least in such a manner as to not blow his drivers).

I agree 100%: Bass can be monitored w/o overpowering the other instruments... cant it?

I have a rig similar to yours, and I also agree that compression and miking has helped me the most (I use a Shure Beta 52 mic and an EBS multicomp for compression)... miking worked better for me than pre-eq DI, but dont hesitate to try the DI if thats your only option

However, you need to be able to monitor yourself and that will keep you from wanting to overcompensate w/ amp volume. There should be no problem getting some bass in the monitors- the soundman needs to at least try and help you hear yourself imho

walterw · #20 07-25-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunkyDoesIt

Turns out that our ''Drummer/Sound-Tech'' guy doesn't like a descent bass sound. He thinks that Bass means Bass boost, almost no mids or highs. When I was try to adjust my sound, he would always mess up his EQ, explaining why I was unable to set things up...

When I discover that and asked him to adjust it my way, or a least a more conventionnal way, he did nothing untill I told him that if he wants that kind of bass, he's gonna play it by himself...

Looks like I'm gonna be searching for a new band soon.. :P

a bad soundman is far worse than no soundman at all.