Need more volume for female vocalist

[cnl83]

Ok, we have a PA system, I believe it has 12" speakers. Here is a diagram of how our music room is setup.

http://www.actionfx.net/images/musicroom.jpg

The problem is that, as we turn the volume up we get feedback. Im not sure what type of feedback destroyer we have, but it gives off a humming (so the feeback destoyer is a bit over rated. Our instruments sound great but its hard to hear our vocalist when she is hitting the low notes.

I need some help arranging our setup, or something. Maybe a hotter MIC? I dunno, any suggestion would help because our vocalist has an awesome voice as you can hear at this link
http://www.actionfx.net/music/myimmortal.mp3
We just need way more volume.
Thank you!!

[Stanley Design]

Switch the amps and the pa speakers so that she's standing behind them and they are facing everyone except for her.

[modulusman]

Is the mic pointed at the PA? Have her facing the PA speakers. It would also help to know what kind of mic and speakers you are using. You might have to turn down the instuments and get the drummer to play softer.

[cnl83]

Man we play TOOL, its hard to play TOOL soft...

[cdawzrd]

Point the PA speakers at everyone but her, and give her some kind of monitor (either a small powered monitor, or headphones).

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by cnl83

The problem is that, as we turn the volume up we get feedback. Im not sure what type of feedback destroyer we have, but it gives off a humming (so the feeback destoyer is a bit over rated. Our instruments sound great but its hard to hear our vocalist when she is hitting the low notes.

Your setup is wrong, and there's no way you'll get much volume as it is. Mics MUST be placed behind the main speakers. (and if monitors are used, they must oriented so their off-axis side faces the monitors). Also, amps should be placed to be facing the mic's off-axis side.

Move your mic back (toward the drums). move the bass and guitar amps forward a bit, and angled more toward the drums. Move the PA speakers out in front of the amps.

Originally Posted by cnl83

Maybe a hotter MIC?

Unless you change the stage arrangement that will only make matters worse! Really, you want the mic gain set so the singer practically eats the mic. Maximum 2" distance from the screen. This allows you to get maximum volume with minimum gain, which will reduce the amount of unwanted noise entering the mic. And finally, stage volume (amps and drums) ought to be kept to a minimum if you're also running them thru the PA.

See the attachment. This may work, it'll need some tweaking.

[AndyLES]

+1000 to everything RustyAxe (Denny?) said. Try his way first.

Quick Question: are you setting the gain structure properly at the trim pots on the channel? I find this is a huge problem with (no offense) inexperienced engineers....they aren't getting enough at the head amp to feed the rest of the channel. Then, they end up wondering why there's noise and hum and other BS.

Try this -

Step 1: Zero the vocal channel out - that is, turn down the aux sends, bypass or center (no boost or cut) the EQ and bypass anything on the inserts (compressors, gates, etc.).

Step 2: Turn down the faders on the channel and the master section. Bypass any subgroups or VCAs if you have them. I know some guys like to have the faders at unity (the "-0-" mark about 3/4ths of the way up) when performing the next step, but I've found from experience to turn them up last.

Step 3: With your singer belting into the mic, press the PFL or SOLO switch on her channel and SLOWLY turn up the trim pot while LOOKING at the meters. With the singer in full scream, try not to exceed 0 on the meters. Some guys like to go higher, but then, during the performance, when nerves and energy take over, the singer will clip the input stage (with the red lights flashing and all), and we do not want this.

The goal with this step is get the most usable gain possible out of the singer's mic while avoiding the "ceiling" (clipping). 0, or unity, is a good starting point. Don't forget to check in the headphones for any unwanted distortion. If you've got the input gain absurdly cranked (past 12:00) and meters aren't anywhere near unity, get her a better mic (an Audix OM5 is particularly good for quiet vocalists) or, well, singing lessons to better project herself (seriously).

Step 4: Raise the channel fader to Unity (-0-), and then raise the master fader to taste.

I've purposely omitted compressor settings and whatnot to keep this as simple as possible, but this should get you started. Good luck, and let us know how you do.

[cnl83]

thank you for your tips. We will try this and Ill post back.

Thanks

[AlembicPlayer]

I like rusty axes's plot but I would turn the mains facing the band/singer.
how can she hear herself with the mains pointing towards the wall?
The mic only needs to be behind the speaker when the speaker is facing forward or downstage...if you turn them around so they face the band, the mic is just fine where it is.

We rehearse with the mains facing the band...just sayin

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by AlembicPlayer

I like rusty axes's plot but I would turn the mains facing the band/singer.
how can she hear herself with the mains pointing towards the wall?
The mic only needs to be behind the speaker when the speaker is facing forward or downstage...if you turn them around so they face the band, the mic is just fine where it is.

We rehearse with the mains facing the band...just sayin

I was trying to say the same thing in my post. And the OP still hasn't said what she is using for a mic.

[AndyLES]

Originally Posted by modulusman

I was trying to say the same thing in my post. And the OP still hasn't said what she is using for a mic.

Good point. If it's a mic with a tight polar pattern (like the aformentioned OM5) she'll have no problems with the speakers facing her.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by AlembicPlayer

I like rusty axes's plot but I would turn the mains facing the band/singer.
how can she hear herself with the mains pointing towards the wall?
The mic only needs to be behind the speaker when the speaker is facing forward or downstage...if you turn them around so they face the band, the mic is just fine where it is.

We rehearse with the mains facing the band...just sayin

I might do the same for a rehearsal, but not performance, which is what I thought the OP had in mind. BTW - the Audix OM5 has a hypercardioid pattern ... which, unlike a cardioid (SM57,58), has a pretty significant lobe at 180 degrees (back of the mic).

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I might do the same for a rehearsal, but not performance, which is what I thought the OP had in mind. BTW - the Audix OM5 has a hypercardioid pattern ... which, unlike a cardioid (SM57,58), has a pretty significant lobe at 180 degrees (back of the mic).

Well from the way I read the original post they are having problems at rehearsal. The cheapest, easiest way to fix the problem is to TURN DOWN!

[kalle74]

just a question...

how´s her mic technique? she´s not "cupping" the mic? the lips should touch the mic´s grille almost all the time, backing away for the loudest screams only...

[AndyLES]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I might do the same for a rehearsal, but not performance, which is what I thought the OP had in mind. BTW - the Audix OM5 has a hypercardioid pattern ... which, unlike a cardioid (SM57,58), has a pretty significant lobe at 180 degrees (back of the mic).

Does it?!?!?

I stand corrected.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by cnl83

Man we play TOOL, its hard to play TOOL soft...

You're going to blow your singer's throat if she has to scream to be heard. Then you won't be playing anything. Loud is one thing but don't give your singer polyps on her larynx because you get off on being loud. You don't have enough PA in there to play that loud.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Your setup is wrong, and there's no way you'll get much volume as it is. Mics MUST be placed behind the main speakers. (and if monitors are used, they must oriented so their off-axis side faces the monitors). Also, amps should be placed to be facing the mic's off-axis side.

Sorry, this bolded part is wrong. At most of the gigs I do with a 4-piece band in which I'm the lead singer and bassist, we use the PA speakers (2 x RCF ART 322A) as monitors for ourselves as well, placed on stands behind us on the stage on the left and right sides (whenever the stage allows for this). Works absolutely great, even with the mic turned up loud. We're not playing very quietly and I like having my mic loud in the PA. I haven't experienced any feedback problems with my mic in years.

OTOH, I sing with a rather loud voice close to the mic so I don't need too much gain from the mixer. Turning up the gain causes feedback. I also use a minimum of effects like reverb. Only a tiny bit. Too much of it decreases the feedback resistance significantly and you get a bad sound too. Also never put effects in the monitors if used.

Mic technique is also essential (i.e. how you hold the mic, distance from the mouth, pointing direction in relation to the speakers etc.). Also, good mics have a better feedback resistance than poor ones. Make sure you're using a dynamic mic as well because condenser mics are much more sensitive to feedback than dynamic ones, generally speaking.

[IvanMike]

i'm gonna go out on a limb and bet she's not singing into the mike close enough.

after that? turn down, get a better pa, get a mike with a tighter polar pattern, ring out the pa for the room so you can get max volume out of it.

[Rune Bivrin]

I went ahead and listened to the song you posted, and I'm not surprised you have feedback issues.

While her voice is good and reasonably powerful in the higher registers, she has no projection whatsoever in the lower registers. To be heard when singing those parts she needs serious cranking from the PA, and that's just not going to work. Crank = feedback, as you will have noticed.

You have a few alternatives:

• Get her to sing louder, i.e improve her technique.
• Change musical style to soft jazz or singer/songwriter stuff.
• Get an insanely directional mic, and the necessary mic handling that results.
• Put her in another room.

I once played in a band where the female singer consistently sang so softly that she barely heard herself. She was just not comfortable when her voice was the strongest instrument in the mix. The remedy was to turn her down. While she was still barely heard, she was at least singing with a powerful voice and thus she learned to control it better.

Another issue that we have in my current band is that some of the mics are sensitive to mechanical interference, which ultimatly leads to the mic body and mic stand acting as extenders to the mic. That is sometimes a problem, and is something we we will have to fix eventually.

In some rare instances I have seen issues when the mic is not just close to the lips, but partially inside the mouth. That can act as a resonance chamber which facilitates feedback.

[FenderJazzMM]

Here is my 2 cents worth:
1. Ring out the EQ. Zero the vocal channel low,mid highs..etc. Turn gain on the vocal channel 1/4 way. Move the EQ faders up and down until you hear feedback. then bring them down. No smiley face please. then adjust accourding to your ears.
2. Mains should be six feet from the floor. From the top of the speaker to the bottom of the stand. To aviod accidents
That's my 2 cents.