No Bass Amp??

yahtzee1280 · #1 11-03-2009, 03:01 AM

Ok Heres the Deal, our worship director said to me not to bring my bass amp back cause he said theres to much sound.
THIS IS MADNESS (lol i had to)
cause if they take away my amp (i have a hard enough time hearing my self as it is WITH my amp)
so...if i ONLY go through the system, would that mean i wont be abel to EQ my own sound anymore or use my Effect peddles?
and if they set up a moniter for me, isnt that doing the same thing as my amp?

i just dont know anymore i need some advice

krueckschloss · #2 11-03-2009, 04:26 AM

Check out some preamps or DI boxes that have an XLR out. I'm using Tech21 bass driver deluxe for that purpose but there are many quite affordable products out there. Some also have an effects loop. With such setup, you can go PA only and still have the ability to tweak on your sound.

Regards,

Karol

yahtzee1280 · #3 11-03-2009, 11:20 AM

i just feel like every time we
are loud they blame it on me
and now there taking it out on me by taking my amp away, But whatever

i just feel like its not going to sound good
mostly because our sound guys dont
know there head from a hole it the ground
and i dont have a preamp or anything
and im not real sure how there going to
put me through the system

anyways

i might have to deal with this for a while
i am going to miss my amp tho

Lonnybass · #4 11-03-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahtzee1280

i just feel like every time we
are loud they blame it on me
and now there taking it out on me by taking my amp away, But whatever

i just feel like its not going to sound good
mostly because our sound guys dont
know there head from a hole it the ground
and i dont have a preamp or anything
and im not real sure how there going to
put me through the system

anyways

i might have to deal with this for a while
i am going to miss my amp tho

Stand up for yourself...I'd suggest next time you are there, don't even plug in your bass and then let them whine about how you're still too loud. Then you can take the satisfaction of showing them with their own eyes that it isn't 'you.' (imagine the look on their faces if you were to tell them you weren't even playing!).

From time to time I've gotten the blame for being too loud myself and have sometimes resorted to similar demonstrations to make my argument.

MNAirHead · #5 11-04-2009, 12:53 PM

Churches do create bass issues.. the rooms commonly will not be hospitable.

Add to this the mixed audience you're playing for.

A simple cheap box is a used MXR M-80

I always carry a Rolls PM351 with me for this situation.. takes a bit of getting used to...

Amps and churches commonly clash.. it's not you.

MIJ-VI · #6 11-05-2009, 03:16 AM

Headphones...

The_Low_Dude · #7 11-05-2009, 09:43 AM

I think you should convince him to allow you using your amp again. First of al it is pretty important to get your tone right.

If it is possible: put your amp in front of yourself. Avoid setting your amp in such a way that the sound is aimed directly towards your feet, cause that way you'll have to turn up your volume too loud to hear yourself. You could also try to put your amp on a table or something, so it is more at ear-level.

If an amp still isn't an option, try using some preamp or DI in combination with a monitor. I am trying the same thing with a new band I'm in: I want the PA to plug in to my Bass Attack, and if there is enough monitoring, I'll try to gig without my amp.

MNAirHead · #8 11-05-2009, 04:21 PM

Low Dude.

In your church gig.. how do you tailor tone at mid house?

yahtzee1280 · #9 11-05-2009, 10:36 PM

well im going to see how practice goes and see if i can get some
in ear monitors
and see how the tone goes through the system

slybass3000 · #10 11-05-2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yahtzee1280

Ok Heres the Deal, our worship director said to me not to bring my bass amp back cause he said theres to much sound.
THIS IS MADNESS (lol i had to)
cause if they take away my amp (i have a hard enough time hearing my self as it is WITH my amp)
so...if i ONLY go through the system, would that mean i wont be abel to EQ my own sound anymore or use my Effect peddles?
and if they set up a moniter for me, isnt that doing the same thing as my amp?

i just dont know anymore i need some advice

That sucks big time because WE need to feel the bass even with good sound in the can because this is why we play the instrument,right?. I'm lucky because all the gigs I do require in-ear monitoring but I always use my bass gear for my sound for stage and PA. If you play in church the bass will rumble anyway,no matter what. It is a ringing place. You will play better with your amp on stage because you will feel what you play and so are your bandmates. Just don't play to loud. Just enough to get something going on stage.

I've been having this debate all the time with in the house soundman but nothing replace a real speaker,not even a shaker under the stage.

Good luck,

Sly

MNAirHead · #11 11-06-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slybass3000

That sucks big time because WE need to feel the bass even with good sound in the can because this is why we play the instrument,right?. I'm lucky because all the gigs I do require in-ear monitoring but I always use my bass gear for my sound for stage and PA. If you play in church the bass will rumble anyway,no matter what. It is a ringing place. You will play better with your amp on stage because you will feel what you play and so are your bandmates. Just don't play to loud. Just enough to get something going on stage.

I've been having this debate all the time with in the house soundman but nothing replace a real speaker,not even a shaker under the stage.

Good luck,

Sly

I used to think this way until practicing through a recording mixer (suggestion from a pro sound mfg). I tried about 20 cabinets and amps - nothing worked mid house.

My timing, intonation and clarity got bigger.

Don't get me wrong.. I love my biamp rackmount stuff..

It does take a while to recognize chruch gigs require a bit more finesse.

gmarcus · #12 11-06-2009, 07:36 AM

My church in Kauai had these two big sub-woofers on either side of the stage. This caused big problems because the low frequencies would add in phase in some places and be out of phase in other places. In simple terms, the bass is really loud in some places and soft in others depending where you are sitting. Unfortunately the loudest spot is right in the middle and that is where the mixer is. So they kept turning the bass down.

We fixed this buy unplugging one of the subs and the bass smoothed out. If you have a loud amp on the stage, this can cause the same kind of effect when mixed with the house sound.

I suggest that you put your bass amp in front of you on the floor pointing back at you, or next to you up near ear level so you can hear your self and it doesn't mess with the front of house sound. Try turning your bass eq way down at your amp too and let the PA fill in the lows.

Good Luck

bertbassplayer · #13 11-06-2009, 07:41 AM

Unfortunately this is a common thing in a lot churches. People who run the boards have 0 experience and little knowledge in doing so. A number of times what they hear as too much bass is actually the guitars eq'ed poorly.

Some of it (as bad as it may sound) is you just get used to it. You get used to playing when you can't really hear yourself, you get used to
having to deal with people always telling you that your too loud.

Also monitors are a LOT different than your amp... they have control over the monitor.

You have to remember most churches are designed to take speaking word and amplify it naturally so that it fills the room. Unfortunately it takes bass and does that as well. That's why most newer churches (the type that are building churches knowing they are going to mainly do praise and worship services) are designed differently.

MNAirHead · #14 11-06-2009, 07:46 AM

I've yet to work with a church who had a RTA (spectrum analysis done).. they use the EQ as tone control.

If starting over.. I would have gulped and embraced in ears quicker.. I would have saved years of stress. I'm sure my loudness pushed 20+ members away

Tim

Alexander · #15 11-06-2009, 09:07 AM

There are some good comments\advice in this thread. In my experience these are pretty common challenges and result from the perfect storm of inexperienced worship and sound teams (often times more willing than able!) trying to work together in a bad room that wasn't designed to really accomodate a modern worship team. Solving the overall issue requires a holistic approach and you need to approach it with the appropriate character and attitude (teamwork!). Having an open\willing leader is important, also.

First, I agree with MNAirHead - a good start is to EQ the room - after years of pleading with our worship director, we did this and it went a long way to reducing the unwanted boominess, echo, etc we were dealing with. Paying to properly train the sound team to EQ properly and build on this foundation is also very helpful.

Second, I would work with the musicians on the worship team. Many times there is cheap equipment, improperly set-up and poorly played (loudly!). Clearing up the low end can happen when you convince a guitar player they don't need that new distortion pedal on every song, that the kick drum really does need to be tuned properly, instruments should play (and be played!) in tune, the keyboard player doesn't need to get super busy with their left hand, guitars EQ'ed to sound nice and full on their own can dial out low end and actually sound better in a band context, etc. All people hear are big bassy overtones and all eyes focus on you. Of course, it could be you as well - seen lots of bassists play with a smiley face EQ, can't hear themselves so they crank it up. Still can't hear themselves, but makes everything else sound like crap... A nice, fat midrange goes a long way!

Finally, I'd work with the sound team. They should ideally be able to take your stage sound and get that out to the congregation.

I'm fortunate with the new church I've been playing with - though I've so far only done one service, I could hear every note and folks in the audience thought the sound was great. I played my 750W head through a 410 and had it thumping pretty good. Nobody said a thing about me being too loud.

Again, attitude and humility is the way to approach leadership on this. Hopefully, things would get better for everyone involved!

TimmyP · #16 11-07-2009, 12:20 AM

In most rooms, most bass rigs give way too much in some parts of the spectrum, and too little in others. The too little can be fixed with the PA. The too much cannot be fixed by any means other than turning the bass rig down or using EQ to reduce the offending areas. Many if not most bass rigs lack the EQ that is needed to accomplish this task (parametric).

I've heard what I'd call an exceptional bass sound only three times. The best was from a guy who used IEMs and had no on stage bass sound (save for perhaps a little from the guitarist's wedge and the drummer's HotSpot). The second best was from a guy who had a single 12" beside his vocal wedge and tilted to aim at his head. The third was from a guy who just used his vocal wedge.

Use the PA to get the sound that's needed in the room, then use a wedge or bass amp to fill in only what is missing. I expect that you won't need anything below about 400Hz if the PA is cranking along nicely.

SteveC · #17 11-07-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyP

a single 12" beside his vocal wedge and tilted to aim at his head.

Use the PA to get the sound that's needed in the room, then use a wedge or bass amp to fill in only what is missing. I expect that you won't need anything below about 400Hz if the PA is cranking along nicely.

True this. I did this at a gig and it worked great. I rarely have my amp facing out. It's usually in front of me (like a monitor...hmm) or aimed as a "sidefill" for me and the band.

I am fortunate in church. I have a nice DI, a monitor mix of my own, and a system with dual 18" subs. We don't play really loud, but boy, with the subs and 15" 3 ways, it's really full, balanced, and nice.

OtterOnBass · #18 11-09-2009, 08:37 PM

You have two options:
1. Educate yourself and set about fixing the issue
2. Trust whoever is making the decisions and follow their lead.

I did 1 and then 2, realizing I wanted to be on-stage and not running sound. I know that our split subs are causing uneven lows, and that they are full of muddy harmonic distortion (yes, I have a folded horn sub). The head soundperson listened to me, tried my suggestions (moving subs together, against the back wall), and decided against it. The harmonic distortion outweighed the actual signal in the test, i.e. the subs sounded quieter against the wall, where directional noise, the distortion, was blocked. So, I give them a DI and do my best as a bassist.

MNAirHead · #19 11-10-2009, 10:52 AM

Some great notes in this thread.

T.

rtslinger · #20 11-16-2009, 04:12 PM

IEM is the way to go in this situation I used them all the time and I use no amp
I use a SansAmp to the PA. This gives you an effected line out to the board and you can hear yourself just fine soon the rest of the band will be crying they can't hear the bass but you can pretend not to hear them while enjoying yourself not to mention one day your back will thank you