Not a bash, honest question about what I think was a bad sound man.

wheelyjoe · #1 08-31-2010, 10:33 AM

I played a fairly big outdoor festival on Sunday, for the 3rd year running.

I brought along my Markbass Stack, and pedals. I run a bass octave, envelope, and compressor pedal from my bass to the amp, then a volume pedal in the FX loop (it means it's not an on off thing, just a boost, I like it).

Anyway, I was setting up, and the guy starts looking on the back of my amp head for a DI, I pointed out the XLR line out and was told they don't like doing that. Instead they put a DI in front of my amp, after my pedals, and linked that to the input, then mic'd the cab up.

I was like "Erm, but I have my volume pedal in the FX loop, you wont pick up any volume increase from the DI"

"Yeah, we will"

"No. It's after the input"

"Oh yeah, well we've mic'd the cab up"

"Well, yeah, but that means I wont get a proper volume boost"

"It'll be fine mate, we know what we're doing"

"Right."

It wasn't fine in the end.

I just wanna know, is he BS'ing me about it not being a good idea to use the XLR line out?

The other question is:

We were doing a line check, and I asked for more monitors, I couldn't hear anything coming out, the drummer had the same problem. The convo was as follows

"Can I have more in my moniters?"

"More of what?"

"Everything, I can barely hear anything"

"What can't you hear?"

"Anything, atall."

"Well, we can't turn it up more, that just muddies the mix up and isn't right"

"Mate, I cannot hear ANYTHING."

"Stop asking unprofessional questions, we know what we're doing"

"For ****s sake"

End.

They had the exact same thing with out drummer.

Now, we're a young band (3 x 17, 1 x 20) but we're well experienced, have played in Bristol and London, and know what we're doing.
It was at the point I had to watch the bass drum skin for timing. Was this laziness on their part? Or is there something I'm missing?

zacpack · #2 08-31-2010, 10:42 AM

Sounds to me like they just weren't taking you seriously because you are young. I've had many sound people do the same thing to me as well (I'm only 19, and originally a drummer), you tell them something and it's in one ear out the other.

I've seen a lot of judgmental sound guys before, you can just tell when they don't like your music or they don't take you seriously.

chrisbass0013 · #3 08-31-2010, 10:51 AM

i no how you feel im 17 too and people tend to not take younger musicians seriously

Raymeous · #4 08-31-2010, 10:55 AM

Well let’s look at this logically for a second.

"I can't hear anything through the monitor" = stage volume is too loud, or the monitor mix needs to come up. Bottom line is if you're on stage and can't hear the band something is wrong and needs to be fixed.

If they were truly the professionals they claim to be and your stage volume was too loud, they would have mentioned it saying "you're mic'd so you can turn it down a bit". If the stage volume wasn't that loud then they need to bring up the monitor mix. It could go either way here. It could just be that they have an insufficient monitoring system at that venue. That being said, the big red flag for me is: "Stop asking unprofessional questions, we know what we're doing". This is usually a sign of just the opposite.

Invest in some in ear monitors; they are awesome for medium to large shows. They allow you to turn things down quite a bit, and where ever you go on stage you have a perfect mix more or less.

reniwren · #5 08-31-2010, 11:22 AM

I would fix the first problem by getting a DI/pre with an fx loop like an EBS Microbass that way you can have your volume in the fx loop of that, just because there will be many a gig where you wont be able to have your own amp but they don't mind pedals so much plus theres a DI now on your pedal board which always comes in handy.
As for the monitor mix I find it usually is stage volume that doesn't allow for a good mix and keep telling everyone to turn down, but you do have to be clear with what you cant hear as they don't have your ears,
Best mix I ever had was with no amps and in-ears,
Also the sound guy wasn't very helpful to you

christoph h. · #6 08-31-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

I just wanna know, is he BS'ing me about it not being a good idea to use the XLR line out?

Well, until some years ago not all amps had good sounding XLR (DI) outputs, so some soundman still want to avoid amp-DI based on that experience.

That said, I own a Markbass LMII and I think the DI isn't very good sounding - at least that was my impression when recording it. Whether it makes a difference in a live mix with your music I cannot say. The few times the MB was used I didn't get any complaints.

But using a DI before the amp has one important advantage: should your amp fail for whatever reason you still will be audible through the FOH system and could get through the gig with your bass in the monitors.

Since you've decided to use the FX loop, this doesn't seem to be an option for you, so it seems you have to try and convince the soundmen to use your amps XLR out.

bassman1185 · #7 08-31-2010, 01:26 PM

Kind of a simple question, but why do you use the volume pedal in the loop? Seems like it would be simpler to just run it after your other effects.

Plus, then you don't have to worry about throwing a DI between your pedals and amp.

As to your questions, I think some soundguys are a bit leery of built-in amp DIs. Sometimes they're decent, a lot of the time they're junk. Also, if his board wasn't built to take a line-level signal, it would be too hot.

Stage volume-wise, it shouldn't have been a problem to bring the monitors up to where you could hear them. I don't know what your setup is like, but I can't imagine that the monitors would need to be that low.

moles · #8 08-31-2010, 01:32 PM

IMO - the soundman was giving you the best of both worlds. I can't comment on why he wouldn't want to use the xlr out on the amp - I'm leaning towards Christoph's comments above as the reason.

It really depends on how they mixed the DI signal and the miked signal, but if it was a good balance, there should have been no problem with getting the boost from the volume pedal out into the house.

It sounds like maybe your soundguy got a little cheesed off about the first altercation, and possibly not very open to suggestions about the monitor mix. Not sure what to say about that. Ego problems? Did you *really* fight him over the signal chain?

IME if anyone you're working with has a problem with your age, it's just that - their problem. You're not going to solve that in the 4 short hours or so that you're working together. Experience has taught me to try to quickly sniff out how easy a FOH engineer will be to work with, and if there are any issues with sound, signal chain, etc I give them the Information To Work With rather than making demands. IOW "I usually put the DI after my multi-effects, because there are several passages where I play keys parts and there shouldn't be bass in those parts of the songs..." rather than getting into a discussion about the right or wrong way to do things. If he's one of those "it's always done this way" sorts, then there's probably nothing you can do without creating an uncomfortable situation that helps no one.

Phalex · #9 08-31-2010, 01:58 PM

Their DI is a known quantity, as opposed to the DI on your amp which they have never seen before.

That's the only defense/explanation I can give you for any of what transpired.

Sounds kinda douchey to me.

shamusplaysbass · #10 08-31-2010, 02:07 PM

The sound guy at the local venue my band plays always uses the DI in the back of my head. It always sounds great and he never has any issues mixing us. I think you just got a crappy sound guy.

brickerenator · #11 08-31-2010, 02:11 PM

As a sound guy, I HATE miking amps.

There I said it.

BigOldHarry · #12 08-31-2010, 02:14 PM

I have that sound guy. He was a moron then, sounds like a moron now.

BTW: I've *never* had any mic my cabs -- what's the point? That's for guitarists.

tony_clifton · #13 08-31-2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brickerenator

As a sound guy, I HATE miking amps.

There I said it.

Why? I roll off on bass and treble and leave mids flat. Should give you enough of everything to adjust to the venue, or am I mistaken?

jady · #14 08-31-2010, 03:08 PM

I used to have a lot of DI issues with sound ppl. If I spend $2000 on an amp I want to hear it, it is my tone. They would never ask a guitarist not to use his amp because it is vital to his tone. Same here sound fellas.

wheelyjoe · #15 08-31-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moles

Did you *really* fight him over the signal chain?

I didn't fight him, I told him the volume pedal wouldn't come through their DI, when he didn't care, I gave up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jady

I used to have a lot of DI issues with sound ppl. If I spend $2000 on an amp I want to hear it, it is my tone. They would never ask a guitarist not to use his amp because it is vital to his tone. Same here sound fellas.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassman1185

Kind of a simple question, but why do you use the volume pedal in the loop? Seems like it would be simpler to just run it after your other effects.

When I run it after my FX, it's an on/off pedal. Down is off, up is full, getting it to just boost it for a bit, the back down to the same place is a b****, so I run it in the FX loop, so down is a flat volume, and up it a boost.

If you get me?

wheelyjoe · #16 08-31-2010, 05:42 PM

Oh, and plus, this is a BIG festival, like 3 stages, and I was on the main one, playing quite early in the day 12-1, but still to several hundred people. Later on, the same stage had 5k+ people watching, the sound guys run the Jazz stage at glasto (or used to, from what I can tell they don't anymore) they seem like they were just being jerks.

TimmyP · #17 08-31-2010, 09:00 PM

Some amp DIs have problems. I prefer to use my own, but if it's a quick changeover situation I'll use the amps' DIs unless they suck, as it's one less cable and widget to deal with.

Some sound guys are dicks. (Even I have been one.) They should have at least walked up and checked the monitors - sometimes stuff does not work - as at the walk-in I had last Saturday.

Having the pedal in the loop makes sense - it preserves optimal signal-to-noise ratio throughout the rig. All the guy had to do was put his DI in the loop after the pedal. But in his defense, he may have wanted a signal w/o the pedal owing to his experiences with players who's most common use of a pedal is to turn himself down at the wrong times.

moles · #18 08-31-2010, 09:40 PM

Yeah, reading again about the Festival situation, I'd say you got the best of both worlds with the DI + mic setup. And kudos to you for not pushing the issue.
Sounds more now like he was just being lazy about the monitors.

NateS · #19 08-31-2010, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelyjoe

When I run it after my FX, it's an on/off pedal. Down is off, up is full, getting it to just boost it for a bit, the back down to the same place is a b****, so I run it in the FX loop, so down is a flat volume, and up it a boost.

If you get me?

there is at least one volume pedal that solves this, the morley volume plus. has a pot and switch that changed the pedal down position to be any amount from no change to full off that you want. you could set it to have the pedal down be at 60% and pedal up is 100 for "boost", then pedal back all the way to normal playing.

outside of that tid-bit of advice, i have nothing to add to this convo, as i have only played 1 gig with a soundman.

fokof · #20 08-31-2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelyjoe

..... but we're well experienced, have played in Bristol and London, and know what we're doing.

That being said , it's absolutly impossible that you din't hear nothing.
You could not discern what you were hearing would be more appropriate. When that happens , you have to tell the soundman (Monitor guy) what is too loud and what is not enough , it's always better to ask for lowering stuff than always ask to augment the volume. And soundmans will appreciate this.
If you just say: "I don't hear sh**" , the guys can't guess what you want even if he has a "listen" to his monitor desk , you have to put the right words and ask for it.
That's where experience kicks in.

It is very possible to ask to lower the bass too .....