Novice amp and monitor questions

dancrocker · #1 06-03-2009, 12:43 PM

I have virtually no experience playing live. I'm just now starting to play with a group in my church and went to my first rehearsal this past monday. The first thing I noticed was that I was having a hard time hearing myself. I used the only amp I currently own (GK backline 112) and had it next to me. I often had to lean in a bit to hear it. I'm used to playing by myself and hearing every detail so perhaps my expectations are skewed.

I honestly don't know if the 112 is large enough for this venue. The church probably seats 500-700 people. Is it fair to assume that the best way to know if the amp is big enough is to have someone go to the back of the church and listen? If so, how will the power required be influenced by the presence of lots of people (the initial listening will probably be in an empty church). If I need something bigger, I'm going to be very concerned about physical size because my car is small (BMW 3-series).

As for hearing myself, should I be considering a monitor? Or, can I improve things by changing the location of the amp? I saw lots of threads on monitors but I have to admit I'm still confused. If I want a monitor to hear what I'm playing, do I simply need another amp+speaker pointed towards me? If so, does this amount to just sending the output of my bass to two amps? Or, are there amps that have multiple outputs, one for the main speaker and one for a monitor?

**baba** · #2 06-03-2009, 01:06 PM

I assume the church has a PA since the vocals need amplification. Put a DI between your bass and amp, and send the signal to the PA mixer. This will allow your bass to be amplified through the PA speakers so you will be heard out front.

The PA mixer should also have sends so you can get a signal back from the PA with your bass in it, and anything else going through the mixer that you want in it. Take this signal and plug it into a powered monitor. This will give YOU added bass volume on stage so you can hear yourself. Of course, you could also skip the powered monitor from the mixer and just get a bigger bass amp which will act as your monitor.

dancrocker · #3 06-03-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

I assume the church has a PA since the vocals need amplification. Put a DI between your bass and amp, and send the signal to the PA mixer. This will allow your bass to be amplified through the PA speakers so you will be heard out front.

The PA mixer should also have sends so you can get a signal back from the PA with your bass in it, and anything else going through the mixer that you want in it. Take this signal and plug it into a powered monitor. This will give YOU added bass volume on stage so you can hear yourself. Of course, you could also skip the powered monitor from the mixer and just get a bigger bass amp which will act as your monitor.

Yes, the church has a PA but I've been assuming it won't reproduce the low frequencies very well. But, I have to admit I didn't try it.
Also, I've seen lots of references to a DI but I have to admit I don't completely understand what it is. Could you point me to a reference that explains the details (what it does and how it hooks up)? One specific question about what you said though...it sounds like you're suggesting I send a signal to the PA as well as my bass amp, and receive one from the mixer for a monitor. Do I have this right?
Finally, what's the difference between a powered monitor and my GK bass amp? Is it just the frequency range it's designed for? Or something else?

**baba** · #4 06-03-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancrocker

Yes, the church has a PA but I've been assuming it won't reproduce the low frequencies very well. But, I have to admit I didn't try it.
Also, I've seen lots of references to a DI but I have to admit I don't completely understand what it is. Could you point me to a reference that explains the details (what it does and how it hooks up)? One specific question about what you said though...it sounds like you're suggesting I send a signal to the PA as well as my bass amp, and receive one from the mixer for a monitor. Do I have this right?
Finally, what's the difference between a powered monitor and my GK bass amp? Is it just the frequency range it's designed for? Or something else?

All you need to really know about a DI is that it is a small box that you plug your bass cable into. The box then has two outputs - one goes to your amp and one goes to the mixer.

Yes, you have the mixer/monitor situation right.

The monitor will not sound as good overall as your bass amp, but if you boost the mids on the mixer channel, it will cut through and you'll hear yourself better. Sounds like you can't hear yourself on stage too well. Lastly, yes the GK is designed around the bass' frequency range, whereas the monitor is not bass specific.

dancrocker · #5 06-03-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

All you need to really know about a DI is that it is a small box that you plug your bass cable into. The box then has two outputs - one goes to your amp and one goes to the mixer.

Yes, you have the mixer/monitor situation right.

The monitor will not sound as good overall as your bass amp, but if you boost the mids on the mixer channel, it will cut through and you'll hear yourself better. Sounds like you can't hear yourself on stage too well. Lastly, yes the GK is designed around the bass' frequency range, whereas the monitor is not bass specific.

Thanks for the responses. So, if all I care to "monitor" is my bass, why can't I just point my bass amp towards me and eliminate the monitor? I guess I can see (maybe) the value of having both the monitor and my amp in cases where I want a feed from the mixer that includes things other than my bass. But, if I don't want to do this, then I don't see the point of the separate monitor.

Or, is the idea to use the bass amp (pointed towards the audience) to augment the sound coming from the PA?

**baba** · #6 06-03-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancrocker

Thanks for the responses. So, if all I care to "monitor" is my bass, why can't I just point my bass amp towards me and eliminate the monitor? I guess I can see (maybe) the value of having both the monitor and my amp in cases where I want a feed from the mixer that includes things other than my bass. But, if I don't want to do this, then I don't see the point of the separate monitor.

Or, is the idea to use the bass amp (pointed towards the audience) to augment the sound coming from the PA?

You can definitely just use the amp as your monitor. I only mentioned the separate monitor because it sounded like you were worried about the power of your amp....perhaps I misunderstood and you were only worried about it's power in relation to out front.

The audience may or may not hear much of your amp out front depending on it's volume and where they are.

I'd start by trying to get the bass into the PA via a DI and then moving your amp around until you find an ideal spot so YOU can hear it. While a single 12 would not keep up on stage with bands I play with, it's probably a fine monitor in a church setting.

dancrocker · #7 06-03-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

You can definitely just use the amp as your monitor. I only mentioned the separate monitor because it sounded like you were worried about the power of your amp....perhaps I misunderstood and you were only worried about it's power in relation to out front.

The audience may or may not hear much of your amp out front depending on it's volume and where they are.

I'd start by trying to get the bass into the PA via a DI and then moving your amp around until you find an ideal spot so YOU can hear it. While a single 12 would not keep up on stage with bands I play with, it's probably a fine monitor in a church setting.

Ok, so I think I almost got it. It sounds like a powered monitor would be (or could be) louder than my bass amp and might work better for monitoring my own playing than my bass amp. Is this correct? If so, then I think we're in sync.

Thanks,

**baba** · #8 06-03-2009, 03:55 PM

Almost. I would use it to augment your bass amp if you can't hear yourself play. Ideally you would just hear your bass amp, which will sound better than a PA monitor. If it isn't loud enough after repositioning/tweaking, you have two options: get a bigger amp or add a monitor and continue to use the small amp.

dancrocker · #9 06-03-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

Almost. I would use it to augment your bass amp if you can't hear yourself play. Ideally you would just hear your bass amp, which will sound better than a PA monitor. If it isn't loud enough after repositioning/tweaking, you have two options: get a bigger amp or add a monitor and continue to use the small amp.

OK, I get it. Thanks very much!

dancrocker · #10 06-03-2009, 04:14 PM

Baba (or others):

I just traded some mails with the music director and there seems to be some data to indicate that the church PA isn't beefy enough to run the bass through. Apparently, this was tried in the past and didn't work well. If this is true (I'm still researching), what's the next best alternative? My current (or bigger) amp plus a monitor pointed towards me? If so, is there a simple splitter which allows me to send the output of my bass to both? Should I expect to be able to hear myself with just a single amp pointed outwards?

GregShadoan · #11 06-03-2009, 05:17 PM

You are not going to fill a 500-700 seat room with that amp no matter how much you try. You need a larger bass amp if there is no PA support. something with a little throw to it, maybe a couple 15"'s in a cab. The GK would be a great little monitor amp, set in front of you, with a bigger amp somewhere else for the room. It doesn't seem to make too much sense that a room that big would not have a PA large enough to support a little bass though. Do you know who the sound person is? can you contact them? The music directors usually are not all that savey when it comes to technical capibilities of sound. IME. Is it a really rockin band?

dancrocker · #12 06-03-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregShadoan

You are not going to fill a 500-700 seat room with that amp no matter how much you try. You need a larger bass amp if there is no PA support. something with a little throw to it, maybe a couple 15"'s in a cab. The GK would be a great little monitor amp, set in front of you, with a bigger amp somewhere else for the room. It doesn't seem to make too much sense that a room that big would not have a PA large enough to support a little bass though. Do you know who the sound person is? can you contact them? The music directors usually are not all that savey when it comes to technical capibilities of sound. IME. Is it a really rockin band?

Yeah, I am worried about my little amp filling the room. I will try to chat with the sound guy about it. It looks to me like the PA system has been set up for voice (speaking and singing). The speakers I can see are quite small (little ones hanging from the ceiling). I'm obviously no expert but it would surprise me if these little things could carry much bass. On the other hand, maybe the previous attempt to do this was just done wrong.

As for the band, it's a full band: piano, drums, one electric guitar, two acoustics, bass (me), keyboard, violin. I'm not sure if this is what you mean by "rockin"

JustDavid · #13 06-04-2009, 05:25 PM

+1000 to working with the soundperson on this!!

GregShadoan · #14 06-04-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancrocker

Yeah, I am worried about my little amp filling the room. I will try to chat with the sound guy about it. It looks to me like the PA system has been set up for voice (speaking and singing). The speakers I can see are quite small (little ones hanging from the ceiling). I'm obviously no expert but it would surprise me if these little things could carry much bass. On the other hand, maybe the previous attempt to do this was just done wrong.

As for the band, it's a full band: piano, drums, one electric guitar, two acoustics, bass (me), keyboard, violin. I'm not sure if this is what you mean by "rockin"

What I mean by rockin is loud. :-)
If all you see in the room are smaller speaker boxes, then you probably do not have subs, or low cabs. Kind of a requirement to amplify a bass. You should consider a bigger amp. Do they mic the drums?

dancrocker · #15 06-04-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregShadoan

What I mean by rockin is loud. :-)
If all you see in the room are smaller speaker boxes, then you probably do not have subs, or low cabs. Kind of a requirement to amplify a bass. You should consider a bigger amp. Do they mic the drums?

Well, it's a church and not a bar

, so it's not really loud but needs to be loud enough to fill the room. I'll put it this way, from anywhere in the church you can carry on a conversation without yelling when the group is playing...not something you can typically do in most bars I've been in. I'm pretty sure there are no other speakers other than the ones I can see. As for the drums, I didn't look at the kit closely, but it looks like it's an electronic kit whose output may go to the PA. But, maybe he's got an amp connected directly to it. The next time I'm there, I will survey the connections more closely.

As for a larger amp, I'm game. As I said earlier, minimizing physical size and weight is important since my car is small. I suppose I could ask if the stuff could be stored at the church but I'm not counting on it. If I could, it would make things a lot easier. I won't be playing anywhere else so this would be fine. As for the amp, I assume that my best bet would be a separate head and cabinet so at least I could put them in different places in my car (as opposed to a monster combo). I'm mostly worried about the size of the cabinet (obviously). I haven't a clue how big it would need to be or whether I should go with one big driver or multiple smaller ones. I know there's probably lots of threads on this and I will do some looking around. But, if you have any suggestions, please lay them on me. I'd be interested in cabinet size, power, and brand recommendations. Are there vendors that specialize in small/light but still provide good quality and value?

**baba** · #16 06-05-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancrocker

I'd be interested in cabinet size, power, and brand recommendations. Are there vendors that specialize in small/light but still provide good quality and value?

Yes. I'd pose this question in the Amps forum for more visibility and opinions.

GregShadoan · #17 06-05-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

Yes. I'd pose this question in the Amps forum for more visibility and opinions.

Yeah, Im not going to open that can of worms, I still play through refridgerators

dancrocker · #18 06-05-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregShadoan

Yeah, Im not going to open that can of worms, I still play through refridgerators

I looked already and there's a big summary of small/light amps and cabinets in the FAQ. This should keep me busy for a while. Thanks for all the help.

One question still not yet answered: if I have a big amp and a small one (being used as my monitor), how do I hook them both up? Is there a splitter that sends the output of my bass to multiple amps?

GregShadoan · #19 06-05-2009, 03:41 PM

Yeah, just a Y cord, or a line out of one of the amps, into the other. If you use the "big" amp, most likely you wont need the little one.

chondro776 · #20 06-05-2009, 04:07 PM

Howdy.
Free advice is worth exactly that...and from me, probably even less....

Forget the monitor. Entirely. It isn't necessary, it is just complicating the issue.

Do I understand correctly that playing with a full band is somewhat of a new experience? If so (congrats first of all!) I think you may just not be used to 'where' the bass sits in the mix. I loose a lot of 'little' sounds (some attack, string noise, etc) in the mix, and I have more than enough power and only one guitarist and drummer to compete with. So maybe give it a little time for your ears to adjust before buying anything.

If however, you have a legit volume problem (which probably is at least partially responsible) then just go for a ballsy yet compact amp/cab. I would imagine you could get a micro head with plenty of umpf and a 15" cab that would be manageable for your ride.

IMO with something in the 300-400 watt range, and a quality 15 (maybe w/ a horn) you would have more than enough juice for your situation.

Also, just tilt your amp back.
Aim those waves at your ears.