P bass direct to board...punch? articulation?

[got_the_bug]

Let me preface this by stating that my terminology might not be correct...hopefully, you'll be able to sort through my confusion.

I have a new Fender American Standard P-bass. Last night, I went to my practice session for church (large, mostly square room with semi-circle balcony). My setup is bass --> Boss tuner --> Boss Comp/Limiter --> Boss EQ --> Sansamp DI --> direct to board. Although I was able to make my sound a little "tighter" by playing with the EQ/Sansamp settings, it still lacks the punch/articulation/whatever it is I'm chasing. What I'm hearing though the PA is strong and bassy, but there doesn't seem to be good note separation. I'm using IEMs when actually playing with the band, so the stage volume (other than the sub behind me) is minimal, and what I'm getting through the IEMs is fine. In the sound guy's words, the live sound of the bass is lacking punch. Again, it's definitely not a volume/low end weakness.

Any ideas where to start? Would it be a good idea to add my Fender Bassman 250 to the mix -- I feel like this may help with note separation -- should I be trying to dial in my effects better or change their order, or should the sound guy be working on shaping the tone better from the board? All three? Go back to playing your primary instrument of piano?

Thanks!

[Hellbastard]

How Many Subs does the system have? How many Mains? Where's the Crossover, if any, set at? How many Watts are you guys using? Are the Boxes unpowered or powered?

[NKBassman]

Have you tried running straight into the board? Maybe all the EQ between your Boss and BDDI is getting in the way?

[rtslinger]

Originally Posted by got_the_bug

Let me preface this by stating that my terminology might not be correct...hopefully, you'll be able to sort through my confusion.

I have a new Fender American Standard P-bass. Last night, I went to my practice session for church (large, mostly square room with semi-circle balcony). My setup is bass --> Boss tuner --> Boss Comp/Limiter --> Boss EQ --> Sansamp DI --> direct to board. Although I was able to make my sound a little "tighter" by playing with the EQ/Sansamp settings, it still lacks the punch/articulation/whatever it is I'm chasing. What I'm hearing though the PA is strong and bassy, but there doesn't seem to be good note separation. I'm using IEMs when actually playing with the band, so the stage volume (other than the sub behind me) is minimal, and what I'm getting through the IEMs is fine. In the sound guy's words, the live sound of the bass is lacking punch. Again, it's definitely not a volume/low end weakness.

Any ideas where to start? Would it be a good idea to add my Fender Bassman 250 to the mix -- I feel like this may help with note separation -- should I be trying to dial in my effects better or change their order, or should the sound guy be working on shaping the tone better from the board? All three? Go back to playing your primary instrument of piano?

Thanks!

Yeah, sound man should be shaping the FOH tone only suggestion is on your amp run the Eq flat so you can send a clean signal to the board and maybe lose the comp/limiter it will make his job easier to shape if you aren't sending him a overly compressed overly eq'ed signal imo

[got_the_bug]

I don't know all of the answers to the questions posed by Hellbastard, but I forwarded them along to the sound guy.

NKBassman, your suggestion should have been an obvious test...I'll try that.

rtslinger, just to reiterate, I wasn't yet using an amp; just questioning whether or not that might help. Actually, now that I think of it, if I took the effects out of the way, went straight to the amp and used the DI in the amp to go to the board, that might be a better way to do it.

[Ric5]

Get a 1x10 or a 2x10 combo. Get the sound you want with that amp and then mike it with an sm57.

[got_the_bug]

Originally Posted by Ric5

Get a 1x10 or a 2x10 combo. Get the sound you want with that amp and then mike it with an sm57.

Forgive the noob question, but is there an advantage to miking my Bassman 250/210 rather than using the XLR out to send the signal to the board? I may be misunderstanding, but I think I can pass along the affected signal (as processed by the amp) to the house.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by got_the_bug

Forgive the noob question, but is there an advantage to miking my Bassman 250/210 rather than using the XLR out to send the signal to the board? I may be misunderstanding, but I think I can pass along the affected signal (as processed by the amp) to the house.

sure you can. i prefer micing too, but you can pass the effects to the house if they're before the xlr.

i'd lose the boss compressor, too, but i might keep the sansamp. however, i would lose both of them at first to try it out.

[rtslinger]

Originally Posted by got_the_bug

I don't know all of the answers to the questions posed by Hellbastard, but I forwarded them along to the sound guy.

NKBassman, your suggestion should have been an obvious test...I'll try that.

rtslinger, just to reiterate, I wasn't yet using an amp; just questioning whether or not that might help. Actually, now that I think of it, if I took the effects out of the way, went straight to the amp and used the DI in the amp to go to the board, that might be a better way to do it.

You asked if you should use the Amp and I just added to the equation of my possible solution to your problem. RTS

[xed]

I would start by just going bass > sansamp > board without changing anything on the board and see how it sounds. Then let the soundman adjust the board and see how it is. If ok then start adding the other stuff back in one by one but ONLY IF YOU THINK YOU MAY NEED IT. If you go bass > sansamp > board and are happy then you're done.

[unclekebm]

turn the blend knob down on your Sansamp
don't push the lows, it will suck out much needed mids (for articulation)

[onosson]

I am on a short tour right now without an amp. I have three pedals: Korg Pitchblack tuner, BBE Opto Stomp compressor (I don't know how similar this is to the Boss), and SansAmp BDDI. My signal path and settings are pretty much as follows:

1. Pitchblack
2. Opto Stomp: Level about 2:00, 15db boost on (passive P-bass), Compression about 11:00
3. Sansamp: Level at 12:00, blend at 10:00, treble at 11:00, bass at 1:00, drive at 9:00.

My P-Bass is an Aerodyne with a Jazz bridge pickup. I usually have the P pickup on full, the Jazz off or brought up about 25%, and the tone rolled very far down, although I bring it up for songs that need more definition.

I just played with this setup last night, and will be ampless for the next 10 days. I have done it before, but not for a whole tour - I will let you know how it goes and let me know if these settings are of any use to you!

[anonymous101511]

yeah, get rid of the compressor and go right to the board after the sansamp. Run everything flat; Should sound just like you playing your bass at this point. :-)

[prd004]

I'd lose the Boss compressor and the Boss EQ, the EQ is for guitar unless they make one for bass that I havent heard of, and the frequency responce just won't be right.

Room sound through the PA is always up to the soundman though, he should be able to fix your sound or he's not a soundman. Square rooms are the worst as the soundwaves bounce back and fourth and cancell each other out (comb filtering). I hate square rooms, bass waves are the worst since they take the longest to develop you can lose all your clarity.

If your sound out of the Sansamp ia to your liking and everything sounds right in ear, see the previous paragraph.

[Paco the Taco]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

sure you can. i prefer micing too, but you can pass the effects to the house if they're before the xlr.

i'd lose the boss compressor, too, but i might keep the sansamp. however, i would lose both of them at first to try it out.

Jimmy, what microphone do you use/recommend? I just recently started playing in our church's praise band. I play a passive bass into a passive DI box. My issue is the same as the original poster - no articulation in the notes. I play a Hartke 15 Kickback and love the sound that I get out of it. I think a microphone will bring that sound to the church.

[OtterOnBass]

From what I've heard, punch lives at 160-180hz. Boost there or higher, or better yet, cut at the boomy ranges (~100hz)

[prd004]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

From what I've heard, punch lives at 160-180hz. Boost there or higher, or better yet, cut at the boomy ranges (~100hz)

No, these frequencies are extremely low-mid to upper-low, also known as mud!

Punch is going to be a combo of the right low end and upper mid. Boost the lows around 60-100 hz slightly, and the upper mid around 800-1.5k hz more aggresively. Assuming you have boost/cut EQ you can find the sweet spot by cranking the boost all the way up, and sweeping the frequency in the ranges I suggest (or others) AS YOU PLAY, and when you hit that sweet spot it will jump out at you, then roll back your boost to a more subtle amount.

Now the real key to making your bass stand out in the mix is doing the opposite!!!!! Cutting the frequencies that are killing your sound. If you have a four band EQ, I'd boost the lows and the upper mids like I said, and then cut the low-mids and highs by doing the same thing, boost the gain all the way up and sweep the freqency until you hear the most mush and the worst sounds and then cut those frequencies.

Your bass will sound tight and present without having to be too loud to be heard!

I prefer a DI for live sound because it's less problematic, microphones pick up other sound sources and reflections which just muddy up your signal. When I do mic (usually in studio) my mic of choice is the Sennheiser MD 421

[onosson]

Originally Posted by prd004

When I do mic (usually in studio) my mic of choice is the Sennheiser MD 421

Those are great bass mics, underappreciated or overlooked in many cases.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by Ric5

Get a 1x10 or a 2x10 combo. Get the sound you want with that amp and then mike it with an sm57.

With a 57 he won't have anything close to the sound of the amp coming from the PA. Even with the best mic he still won't have the low end that the instrument is capable of.

[jimmyjames77]

My EBS multicomp is at the end in my pedal chain and it REALLY punches things up. I have a pedal before the comp pushing a lot of signal into it and then I set the comp to multiband mode and make the bass compress more than the treble via the internal trim pots. Set the comp kinda high and turn the gain up and there you go, huge punch. Works for me.