PA and compression

[seanm]

Just interested, how often do soundmen run the bass through a compressor at live gigs?

[GregShadoan]

99.9% of the time.

[unbridled]

Yep. Good ones will ask what kind of compression you like.

[seanm]

Hmmmmm................. I may need to get a compressor

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Yes, most of the time. If the compressor channels are at premium, the choice between kick and bass usually ends with bass winning. IMHO of course.

Seanm, You'll only need the compressor to experiment about the different kinds of PA compression methods in order to tell the soundperson your preferences. Chances are that they still do it "their way" if the soundperson isn't paid by You.

OTOH if You're building a PA FX-rack, there's plenty of options from cheapo 4 channel Behringers (that I use) to 1 channel pro stuff that will set you back as much as you're willing to spend.

Regards
Sam

[WalterBush]

Almost always. Other instruments can get away without it, but the bass and kick drum levels can vary wildly between one note and the next, and is usually distracting to an audience, especially at rock shows.

The only exceptions I've seen are when all instruments are acoustic, the bass is well-compressed at the source by a trusted player, or when a compressor isn't available for whatever reason.

If you DO go buy a compressor, just be aware that even if a soundguy trusts you and likes your tone, they will probably limit you "just in case" or may still need to compress you further to keep a consistent level in the mix.

[Dave Martin]

Sorry, guys - this simply isn't true.

In venues from honky-tonks to auditoriums, my bass signal is very seldom compressed (I'll admit that I neither know nor care what happens in bigger venues). And when I"m hired to do sound for a band, the only time I'll compress the bass player is if his technique is so bad that he can't begin to control his levels.

I should also add that bad compression sounds far worse than no compression; in my experience, a dbx 160A is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for live use; I don't care for the sound of their 166, 266, or any of the Behringer/Alesis quality compressors.

Compressors should only be used for one of two reasons - either you like the change it makes to your bass sound (and they all change the sound) or because you can't play evenly. The second reason should be fixed at the source, not at the PA; learn to play well evenly and with proper dynamics and you won't need a band-aid on your technique.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Sorry, guys - this simply isn't true.

In venues from honky-tonks to auditoriums, my bass signal is very seldom compressed (I'll admit that I neither know nor care what happens in bigger venues). And when I"m hired to do sound for a band, the only time I'll compress the bass player is if his technique is so bad that he can't begin to control his levels.

I should also add that bad compression sounds far worse than no compression; in my experience, a dbx 160A is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for live use; I don't care for the sound of their 166, 266, or any of the Behringer/Alesis quality compressors.

Compressors should only be used for one of two reasons - either you like the change it makes to your bass sound (and they all change the sound) or because you can't play evenly. The second reason should be fixed at the source, not at the PA; learn to play well evenly and with proper dynamics and you won't need a band-aid on your technique.

+ 1 on this post.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Sorry, guys - this simply isn't true.

In venues from honky-tonks to auditoriums, my bass signal is very seldom compressed (I'll admit that I neither know nor care what happens in bigger venues).

No offense intended, but (a) does your experience make their experiences untrue? and (b) are you actually monitoring the soundman's actions at all of those gigs? Or are you just listening to whether it "sounds compressed" to you onstage?

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

I should also add that bad compression sounds far worse than no compression.

Definitely--this I can agree with.

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Compressors should only be used for one of two reasons - either you like the change it makes to your bass sound (and they all change the sound) or because you can't play evenly. The second reason should be fixed at the source, not at the PA; learn to play well evenly and with proper dynamics and you won't need a band-aid on your technique.

There's certainly truth in there but it misses a couple of points. One is that those of us that use envelope filters and other effects which have resonant peaks need compression on those filters because those peaks cannot be regulated by playing technique. Another exception is that a player who changes frequently between finger and slap, and/or boosts their lows, and/or goes from steady playing to aggro thrashing, can benefit from a peak limiter to protect their speakers--a specialized use of compression that shouldn't affect the tone.

Not arguing, just clarifying.

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Sorry, guys - this simply isn't true.

In venues from honky-tonks to auditoriums, my bass signal is very seldom compressed (I'll admit that I neither know nor care what happens in bigger venues). And when I"m hired to do sound for a band, the only time I'll compress the bass player is if his technique is so bad that he can't begin to control his levels.

I should also add that bad compression sounds far worse than no compression; in my experience, a dbx 160A is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for live use; I don't care for the sound of their 166, 266, or any of the Behringer/Alesis quality compressors.

Compressors should only be used for one of two reasons - either you like the change it makes to your bass sound (and they all change the sound) or because you can't play evenly. The second reason should be fixed at the source, not at the PA; learn to play well evenly and with proper dynamics and you won't need a band-aid on your technique.

What kind of music do you play? I'll admit my experience mostly comes from rock shows, with a few quirky rennaisance-festival-with-wierd-instrument gigs thrown in. Jazz players are usually uncompressed (though limited!) and I can't speak for country players at all.

But I've sat behind the board for some national acts (though not always as soundman) and I have yet to see an uncompressed bass in rock/hard rock/metal, even if it's just limiting to avoid the bass player clipping if they get excited halfway through the set.

I'd agree that no compression is far superior, obviously. I also haven't seen a large-name act in the position of having to stoop to using Alesis/Behringer. Usually the built-in dynamics in Midas and Yamaha digital boards suffice. If you've had the pleasure of working with bassists of that caliber, great. Possibly the style of music you're playing or mixing for in Nashville may have more to do with it.

My experience is that the opening acts for large-name bands rarely get much of a soundcheck, and the soundguy's not going to bother guaging the bassists' technique, they just call up a generic preset, set the threshold, and go. They generally take up any soundcheck time with drums, guitars, and vocals, and don't care much about bass.

[AndyLES]

I use it 99.8% of the time too. Few (VERY few) players have the technique to regulate their dynamics completely on their own. Besides, like someone pointed out before, wide dynamic changes are bothersome to the feel of the music, at least from the audience perspective.

Here's a question - anyone assign the bass and kick to a subgroup and gently compress them together? Also, has anyone ever parallel compressed the bass? Curious to know if anyone has tried any sort of weird tricks like this.

[bongomania]

Parallel compression is a common trick in recording, I don't know about live.

[AndyLES]

I admit I tried it once myself, live, for a vocalist who had zero mic technique and total "whisper to a scream" vocals. I sent a signal out from an unused aux, into the line in of another channel, put heavy compression on insert, and then bussed both channels to a group with ANOTHER compressor, set for soft limiting.

In any normal situation, it's more compression than I'd care to use, but I was able to control this clown's unpredictable dynamics. I'm curious if anyone else has ever done any "stupid compression tricks" (apologies to Letterman) live.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by bongomania

No offense intended, but (a) does your experience make their experiences untrue? and (b) are you actually monitoring the soundman's actions at all of those gigs? Or are you just listening to whether it "sounds compressed" to you onstage?

(A) My "This just isn't true" respsonse was to those who answered and bass is compressed '99.9% of the time", and 'nearly always'.

(B) Depends on the gig - sometimes, I AM the sound guy, working with other acts. In a number of other situations, I'll spend a lot of time hanging with the crew; by the way, I do NOT tell the sound guy what he should or should not do with my signal; I just know when they tell me what they've done - and in many cases, what gear they have to work with (the smaller the club, the less likely that there will even BE outboard dynamics, and when what's there is second or third tier, the good sound guys bypass it.

There's certainly truth in there but it misses a couple of points. One is that those of us that use envelope filters and other effects which have resonant peaks need compression on those filters because those peaks cannot be regulated by playing technique. Another exception is that a player who changes frequently between finger and slap, and/or boosts their lows, and/or goes from steady playing to aggro thrashing, can benefit from a peak limiter to protect their speakers--a specialized use of compression that shouldn't affect the tone.

Do folks still use envelope filters? Cool! I haven't used one since the late 1970's; it's good to know that they're still out there. (When I used 'em in the 70's, I didn't own a compressor, by the way, and I owned the PA....).

And it kinda strikes me that your other exception is a matter of technique; I' ve seen too many bassists who CAN move from steady playing to slapping to beating the crap out of the instrument who control levels and volume quite well.

I'd suggest that it the peak limiter is activated, it certainly affects the tone; below the threshold of limiting, they generally don't.

As you said, I'm not arguing, simply clarifying what I mean. Please let me know what models of envelope filters are popular these days - I might feel the urge to get one again (you never know when a band leader's gonna call Rose Royce's "Carwash"...).

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

What kind of music do you play? I'll admit my experience mostly comes from rock shows, with a few quirky rennaisance-festival-with-wierd-instrument gigs thrown in. Jazz players are usually uncompressed (though limited!) and I can't speak for country players at all.

Last month, I did a prog rock thing (which may end up touring in Europe this summer). That project, called "Rewiring Genesis", can be heard at: http://www.progrockrecords.com/shop/view.php?id=175 at the showcase where we did it live with 11 people on stage, there was no compression or limiting on any of the basses I played. My regular Wednesday gig is a western swing gig (think of it as a cross between 1960's country shuffles and 1930's big band swing) that I play on double bass. No compression or limiting. Yesterday's project wasn't a live gig, but it was replacing the bass parts on a Christian rock project; the producer wanted me to play a Jazz Bass, and on most songs, he wanted me to use a pick. Though the producer wanted a Tube-Tech CL-1B in the bass chain, the meter on the compressor never showed more than 1dB of gain reduction, whether I was beating out eighth notes with a heavy pick or playing with my fingers. . Tonight's gig was the premier of a theatrical show where I play both acoustic and electric bass. Because I was switching between instruments, the sound guy and I chose miking the amp as the best choice for sound reinforcement (no compressor). Next week I'll be doing a Stax style R&B gig.

But I've sat behind the board for some national acts (though not always as soundman) and I have yet to see an uncompressed bass in rock/hard rock/metal, even if it's just limiting to avoid the bass player clipping if they get excited halfway through the set.

As I mentioned earlier, limiting to protect components should only come into play on the rare occasions that the bass exceeds the threshold of limiting - a threshold that can be avoided with decent technique both on the part of the player and the engineer.

I also haven't seen a large-name act in the position of having to stoop to using Alesis/Behringer. Usually the built-in dynamics in Midas and Yamaha digital boards suffice. If you've had the pleasure of working with bassists of that caliber, great. Possibly the style of music you're playing or mixing for in Nashville may have more to do with it.

err... when did we start talking about large name acts? I've been speaking about every kind of gig from the local beer joint to weddings and corporate dates all the way up to about 1500 seat auditoriums, and my assumption (right or wrong) was that the OP was asking about compression because of a he needed the information for his own work, not because he wanted to know what Coldplay's soundman prefers. But I honestly don't consider good technique to be the province of a select few bassists (though I have been privileged to work with some wonderful guys); I consider it to be an essential part of every professional bassists' ability to play the instrument.

My experience is that the opening acts for large-name bands rarely get much of a soundcheck, and the soundguy's not going to bother guaging the bassists' technique, they just call up a generic preset, set the threshold, and go. They generally take up any soundcheck time with drums, guitars, and vocals, and don't care much about bass.

You'll get no argument from me on that; I see that a lot. But simply because a compressor is in the chain, that doesn't mean that it's either used (depending on the threshold) or needed.

[JimmyM]

I think it's silly to think the only reason for a compressor in the PA is to correct poor technique. OTOH, I think it's silly to think that every bass player needs it. But I'll tell you this...if I own a killer PA that's blasting bass through it, I'm going to put at least a smidge of compression on it to make sure my speakers don't get blown by transients.

[GregShadoan]

Originally Posted by seanm

Hmmmmm................. I may need to get a compressor

No, you don't, unless you want one. It's mostly a function of the PA thing. Play your heart out. If the sound people have one, or think they need one on the bass you will get it. If you are playing small venues without big PA support, your options may be limited regarding PA usually. If you progress to playing medium or large venues, you will have sound support. In that environment they are ubiquities. Often I will put a comp on just the DI line, and leave the mic open. Just depends. A million variables apply. In the real pro world they are almost always in play. About 99.9 percent of the time :-).
Having said that, I couldn't count the times I have NOT used compressors on bass, for one reason or another. Mostly because the tour has (it) tied up on THEIR bass, or something else, and we just plain run out of them. Digital consoles are the future. A comp/gate/whatever on every channel. No racks full of outboard gear.
Have fun, be happy, play bass :-)

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I think it's silly to think the only reason for a compressor in the PA is to correct poor technique. OTOH, I think it's silly to think that every bass player needs it. But I'll tell you this...if I own a killer PA that's blasting bass through it, I'm going to put at least a smidge of compression on it to make sure my speakers don't get blown by transients.

Jimmy, if you have a 'killer PA' (well designed, properly powered and configured correctly) operated by someone with knowledge of gain staging, no transients from a bass are going to blow speakers.

[AndyLES]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I think it's silly to think the only reason for a compressor in the PA is to correct poor technique. OTOH, I think it's silly to think that every bass player needs it....

You're absolutely right, but when you're mixing the weekly open mic/battle of the bands, like I did, you encounter a lot of dreck.

[AndyLES]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Jimmy, if you have a 'killer PA' (well designed, properly powered and configured correctly) operated by someone with knowledge of gain staging, no transients from a bass are going to blow speakers.

Yup. Gain structure, baby! The most important thing I learned.