PA System Help

[Kuchar]

Hello guys, I know this is bass forum but I don't have anywhere else to really ask this question so hopefully you guys can help me out.

Ok, me and my band have been together for about 2 years now and they don't know anything about their gear or gear in general. I know my bass equipment but when it comes to buying a PA I don't even know where to start.

Right now we use a little 300 watt Kustom that has 2 2x8 cabinets and its 300watts. Its good for practice but once we get outdoor to do a gig its very weak.

We played a few shows this summer put on by some big local clubs and some had bad a$$ PA's with like 10 2x15 cabinets where you could just feel everything in your gut. Then, another club had only about 2 big cabinets for their PA and everything was still just as loud.

My question. We want to buy a big PA. One that will project our sound outdoors very nicely and loudly.

What do we need? How much will it cost?

From my understanding, we would need at least 2 2x15 cabinets, a power amp and a mixer. Thats all I know. Does anything else need to be included in this package?

If that is all, can anyone recommend me some bang for the buck PA cabs and some bang for the buck poweramp/mixers?

Thank you too everyone who read this whole thing and to everyone who tries to help me.

[Jehos]

Well you've got a few options.

One major upgrade would be to buy something like the Yamaha EMX512SC powered mixer and something like the BR15 or S115V cabinets. I have this setup with the BR15's, and it's enough PA for clubs up to around 300 people, basically anywhere that we don't have to mic the drums. I bought a package at Guitar Center that was the mixer, cabs, speaker stands, speaker cables, 2 SM57 mics, and 2 mic cables for $1200 I think. The mixer has a 2x500W@4ohm amp in it, which is enough to put 500W to the mains and another 500W to monitors, or you can run stereo 500W 4ohm cabs for front-of-house and have no monitors, or run monitors off a separate amp. In that case I'd go with 2x15" cabinets to nicely provide a 4ohm load and give you a little more kick. You don't have to go Yamaha for this setup, Mackie and JBL are good alternatives that keep you in the $1500-$2000 price range.

The next step up from there would be a bigger mixing board (16 or 24 channel), separate power amps, and probably a pair or two of 2x15" main cabs, subwoofers, and a real monitoring setup. You're talking significantly more money, size, and space for this kind of system, and it's the size where you really should have a dedicated sound guy to run it. On the upside, it's the kind of setup that will cover any size club (it's enough PA for a theater if you don't want it massively loud), and it's the size that you could potentially make money renting it out to other bands and running sound for them. With mains, subs, monitors, rack crossovers/EQ/effects, rack case, snake, cables, etc. you're talking about the $10k-$20k range, depending on what all you get and how big you go. You may also consider buying a trailer at this point, in which case tack on another few grand at least.

Beyond that you're talking massive sound reinforcement for festivals, etc. or an installed system, neither of which you should buy. It's more cost effective to rent that kind of system unless you own a club or theater, or you run a sound reinforcement company of some kind.

Edit: One tip, don't overbuy. Most sound systems are overkill, especially what you find in rock clubs. They usually have enough PA to make everybody deaf, which is totally pointless. The less you buy, the less money you're out and the less crap you have to carry to a gig. The first option I listed is appropriate for bands that are playing out a couple times a month to crowds of 100-300. The second setup is if you're a working band (as in playing several times a week) and you're frequently at places that don't have built in PA's.

[modulusman]

Playing outdoors is a whole different animal than playing inside. You will need more power and speakers. I would stay away from 2-15 cabs unless you are spending serious money. People who buy them are buying with their eyes not their ears. The cheaper ones[JBL JRX 125s] sound like crap. You need to be able to hear yourself sing so you will need monitors. Probably need an EQ or system processor to make your PA sound good. You might look at powered speakers since they have built in processing. As posted above you are looking at least 10K.

[RicPlaya]

I second what Jeho's has said. Really the Yammie SV15's are the best bang for the buck speakers out there. You don't need 2x15's, the singles will do just fine. You can add a simple crossover and subs down the road but these speakers are a good starting point and can be found on Craigslist for decent prices.

For boards I recommend the MC series from Yamaha since they are afffordable and have decent effects, I like the reverb plate for vocals or just about anything. You don't need anything crazy for monitors when starting out, something that sounds clear and used will work. Yammies, Peavys, anything that sounds clear for vocals. For power amps I've seen some sweet deals on used Crowns and QSC's on here and on Craigslist..couple hundred bucks a piece.

[SteveC]

DO you really need to buy a PA for outdoor gigs? Usually those are contracted out to sound companies. Even if you need to supply one on occasion, I would just rent for those occasions and buy one that will work for most of your indoor needs.

We use a Yamaha stereo digital powered (EMX5014C I think) mixer and 2 2-way 15's on sticks. We run everything (bass, drums, keys , guitars, vox) through it with no problem. We are not super loud, but you can hear us just fine.

[Kuchar]

Thanks for the help guys, I'll probably revive this thread in a day or two with more questions. I'm going to do some looking on craigslist and musicianfriend.

Edit: To Jehos

Is the first example you provided enough PA to mic guitar bass and vocals?

[etoncrow]

Jehos gave you really 'sound' advice. I would only add that Kustom makes some inexpensive monitor speakers that are more than adequate.

[LBronson]

As someone who went through what you are about do I can say it's a big change. I would recommend picking up a sound re-enforcment book. Yamaha puts out one of the best. From there you can make some descisions on how to put the whole thing together. I dont think powered mixers are enough. I would also recomend the Peavy line of unpowered mixers with 2 channels of built in effect. The board can support 4 moniter mixes if you want. The price is reasonable and the quality is very good. This will help keep cost down. The next biggest descion is powered speakers or amp and speakers. I'm a big fan of powered speakers for ease of setup. A sub woofer will help fill a room with sound and clean up the upper end. This will in turn allow you more volume. Keep in mind that the little things will add up quick. For the 6 piece cover band I'm in we use 5 vocal mic's 4 amp mic's 4 drum mic's which all use a 20 or 50 foot cable's at a buck a foot. Shure 57's and 58 are a can't miss. Add it up its alot. Speaker cables arent cheap and don't go cheap. This will be a large effort at first but will get easier. Moniter's will be the next item. Floor wedges do not have to be big but need to put a full sound out. If you can get away with 2 on the floor it will help alot. This lets you here so much more. Mixing it all can be challenging and thats why the reading is important. Most the bars we play in don't require a huge system (200-250 people). We use 2 15" subs and 4 12" powered mackies. We've never been to loud but always filled it up with good sound. Watch Craigslist for deals, there always there. I've picked up 2 in ear moniters for the price of one new. Enjoy the next step.

[IvanMike]

2x15 is insane for all but the largest gigs.

invest in some quality efficient 1x12 or 1x15 cabs. efficiency = spl which will give you more volume per watt. And stands.

you may find that you can do outdoor gigs (within reason) with a powered mixer (maybe a better one) with efficient cabinets, esp if you are only putting the vocals and maybe a little kick and guitar through them.

If your powered mixer has line outs, you may be able to hold off on buying a board and buy a quality poweramp first, using the powered mixer as a board for a while (if you find you need more volume)

[jtrow]

I apologize if this comes out wrong, I'm new on here. First thing first, buying a nice P.A. is expensive, no matter how you break it down. If you are going to be putting the whole band through the P.A. buy some subwoofers. They will lighten the load put on your main speakers resulting in a better, cleaner sound. Imo, once you play through subs you'll never go back. When you are buying cables buy more than you need. If you need 4 speaker cables, buy at least 6. If you need 10 mic cables, buy 20. Cables wear out, some faster than others, and you don't want to show up to a gig with only half your cables working. Etoncrow gave great advice on the Kustom monitors, they sound great and are cheap to replace. And you'll probably have to replace them from time to time. The best thing to do is go out to other bands shows, see what gear they use, how it sounds. After a few of these shows hopefully you'll be getting down to the nitty gritty of what you want, I mean need.

[Kuchar]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

So, just to let you guys know. I'm only 19 and my guitarist is 20. We're the only two in the band with jobs (were a trio) and we are on as tight of a budget as we can be without buying junk.

That being said. What do you guys think of two of these paired together.

http://www.music123.com/Yamaha-A15-1...53019.Music123

I'll try looking for used stuff, but right now I'm trying to get an idea. We have a mixer already. I don't know what brand it is but we bought it at a pawn shop like 5 years ago in a package with an old crate bass amp (that I don't own anymore).

So. With all that's said. If those cabinets work out, I would need a power amp and some cables .. and and is that it?

Thanks guys.

[dbassman59]

You know i would do ... I would go down to my local music store and rent a PA ... tell them what you are playing size etc .. and let them recommend you a system.

Don't pull any punches ... tell them you are rookie when it comes to PA's and make sure they step you through the whole process of how to set it up .. run the board etc ... this is way less expensive than buying something and it will give you experience so you will know what to look for when you finally buy ...

[RicPlaya]

They wouldn't be too bad. If you just used them for vocals they would be perfect. If they had a weakness I would say maybe they would lack a little low end.

Frequency Range: 50Hz-200kHz
Power Capacity: 400W program; 800W peak
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms Sensitivity: 97dB SPL (1W, 1m)/127dB SPL (MAX)

Not bad specs

Here are the specs from the Yamaha sv15's with Eminence drivers in comparison, and I know these sound great for the price.

Woofer 15" steel basket
Tweeter Piezo-electric
Frequency Response (+/- 3dB) 50 Hz - 20 kHz
Power Handling (noise, program, peak) 100/200/400
Dimensions (W x H x D) 20" x 25" x 18"
Weight 49 lbs.
Sensitivity 1W, 1m (approximate) 98

For 500.00 a set new I think they would sound really good. I have seen SV15's on CL for 400.00 a set in good shape. I bought an old set of Yammie speakers for 100.00 off CL that are about 12-15 years old and work great for vocal monitors.

[srxplayer]

I would first set your budget. Then decide what you really need the system to do. You can spend a lot of money on worthless gear if you don't plan out what you "need".

Don't listen to "opinions". If you think musicians have opinions wait till you deal with sound geeks. You know the saying "opinions are like #$$*%*&"? Well sound guys have two of them. I have had to listen to arguments over how Adamson Line Arrays suck because blah blah frequency response at 133khz and so we should be using Meyers Sound for this instead of the Adamsons. Oh man I just want to kill sound people at times.

Find something that fits your budget and has good product support. Secondly find something that is easy to set up and dial in a a "reasonable" sound. Don't get over technical with your gear. You guys are musicians not sound techs so you don't need to be wasting al ot of time routing returns and auxillary sends and sub mixes and then dial in you EQ filters, and "pink the room" blah blah blah...99% of the people listening and watching you play can't tell the difference if you running to much compression or not enough and they don't care.

Ok I'm ranting...Sorry. Sound guys can bug me at times, I think touched a nerve with myself...

[srxplayer]

Wow! I just re-read my post. I came off like jerk. I happen to be a sound guy so I felt somewhat validated in being hard on sound guys. If I offended anyone I sincerely apologize.

If you are still checking out this post. What I really mean to say is that you don't have to spend a crazy amount of money to get decent sound for 99% of who you will be playing for. You do however have to spend a considerable amount to get something decent. And don't invest in a big concert system if you are playing larger out door gigs. Hire a small sound company for that. It will be money well spent.

Opinions are going to come at you from everyone and they are going to confuse you. Sound guys have these opinions because they have been trained through years of expierence to hear things that most people can't hear or don't care if they do.

[Stumbo]

When you say "outside", what do mean exactly?

Playing in the middle of the desert? backyard? mall?

Playing on stage with venue seating for 200? 400? 1000? Most venues of any size have a P.A.

I suggest you visit some venues and take some notes on what equipment they have and possibly speak with the sound guy/gal. Also, the smaller your equipment, the bigger the PA needs to be. Attempting to mic. the bass will add some bucks to your purchases because the P.A. will have to have increased power and subs to get good enough lows. Then the crossovers will have to keep the bass out of main mix so the vocals won't get muddy, etc.

Here's some links that may apply to your situation:
What size/type of PA do you use on your gigs? Check all that apply. What size P.A?
Anyone know of beginners books for live sound? Learn Live Sound mixing
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...52#post5622952 Configuring PA
first half decent pa: any advice First P.A.
Help a little band out with advice on a PA Upgrading P.A.

Actually, buying the speakers may be the easier part of putting a P.A. together because then you have monitors, how many mixes you want in the monitors, microphones (drums may take more than one, amp mics, vocal mics, cables, snakes, etc.

Then you get to the point of "who will run the P.A." while your're playing? Have a sound person that you trust and know what they're doing? Running the P.A well from the stage is another thing to think about.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by srxplayer

Wow! I just re-read my post. I came off like jerk. I happen to be a sound guy so I felt somewhat validated in being hard on sound guys. If I offended anyone I sincerely apologize.

Not to me, you didn't. I asked a simple question on a Pro Sound forum, in the newbie section, and was assaulted by dozens of audio engineers with all kinds of esoteric information ... none of whom seemed to agree with each other. And of course, every piece of gear I own is junk.

We played a few more gigs, ironed out the wrinkles, and found that what we were doing was "over the top". Simple is better. MUCH better.

[srxplayer]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Not to me, you didn't. I asked a simple question on a Pro Sound forum, in the newbie section, and was assaulted by dozens of audio engineers with all kinds of esoteric information ... none of whom seemed to agree with each other. And of course, every piece of gear I own is junk.

We played a few more gigs, ironed out the wrinkles, and found that what we were doing was "over the top". Simple is better. MUCH better.

Thats exactly what I meant. Those guys don't always mean well either. They have opinions and love to give them to you. Most of what they say is not helpful and it seems like they are always trying to one up the other guy. Like a bunch of psuedo intelectuals locked in a room debating one another.

I used to post on one of those boards. I just couldn't listen to those guys any more.

Good luck

[modulusman]

Most of what they say is not helpful if you don't understand it. Simple is easier but not always better if you know what you are doing.

[Heath_eld]

I have a couple of pairs the JBL 2x15 speakers (one are the current model JRX, one the previous sound factor model).

For price/performance ratio, when you cant afford the crazy sub rig, they are amazing. Theyre not gonna replace a full active system with subs, but they cost about a third the price