PA Systems help or recommendations needed

[ack]

Hello,

I know almost nothing about PA systems, and I'm looking to help my son and his band out a bit. This is their first attempt at a band, so I'm looking to do a bit of research/purchase a small/portable PA System, just to get them started.

Currently, they practice in my 17' x 20' carpeted den, using the drums and bass setup I have in there, but they're using some cheap-o mic through a 30W Amp to push the vocals - not cutting it at all.

What they're playing: Ramones, U2, White Stripes, Clutch, Sabbath, etc..

About them currently - pretty basic:
- 2 guitars (lead & rythym through 50 & 25W Fenders)
- bass (through 130W Peavey combo)
- (analog) drums (un-mic'd)


Here's where I'm looking for some suggestions...

What they probably need from a PA system:
- min. 4 mic/instrument inputs
- 2 Main and/or 2 Monitors
- min 100 Watts per side
- minor effects capablities

I'm looking to spend about $700, but if that's unrealistic, then I guess I'm spending more...

I've looked at:
- Fender Passport 250, which is nice and portable ($650)
- Yamaha StagePass 300 ($550)
- Kustom 6-input 300W head/2 x Main system ($670)

I know that entry level mic's are roughly $75-$100 per, and cables run about $1 p/ foot or so...

I've been looking on Craigslist, but sinceI don't have any experience with PA systems, it's hard to really know what to avoid.

I tried doing a search on TB for "PA systems", but the search engine doesn't like two-letter searches, and "public and/or address" was pretty useless.

Sorry about being long-winded, but I wanted to provide enough info to get the ball rolling.

Thanks for any help,

Steve

[ack]

also...(and maybe most importantly)
does this question/request belong in a specific Forum here on TB?

[fdeck]

I was on stage with the Kustom head being used as a monitor (in a scottish country dance band), and its heat sink was hot to the touch despite not being driven very hard. Bands I have played with, got good results with the Passport system. The Yamaha boasts a lightweight head. I think any of these would suffice, and also, that you are wise to keep the costs under control.

[Mr. Pickles]

Check out Carvin's website. They have some nice PA packages with solid quality, yet inexpensive gear.

[baba]

I would check out a used Yamaha powered mixer. Quality/cost makes them a great value and they are easily found on eBay or Craigslist. They typically have a basic onboard effects section as well.

Daisy chain your two monitors to one of the internal power amps, and daisy chain your two mains to the other. Just check out the power ratings for the powered mixer and speakers and be sure you understand the wattage/ohms ratings. Your speakers should be 8 ohm so you can get a 4 ohm load after daisy chaining and thereby maximize the output of the power amps.

Used low wattage Yamaha (or other) powered mixer w/ effects - $200-$350

Used cheap mains - $150-$300 pr
Used cheap monitors - $100-$250 pr

That's a very low budget system, but it sounds like what you are looking for. Just make sure you weigh the likelyhood of outgrowing something this size, and whether adding more cash to increase wattage makes sense.

[David Wilson]

Originally Posted by ack

also...(and maybe most importantly)
does this question/request belong in a specific Forum here on TB?

probably best placed, plus you'll get more responses, in band management & performance forum. moving...

[jmac]

What is the goal of the PA? Is it just for practice or to play shows?

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by ack

Hello,

I know almost nothing about PA systems, and I'm looking to help my son and his band out a bit. This is their first attempt at a band, so I'm looking to do a bit of research/purchase a small/portable PA System, just to get them started.

Currently, they practice in my 17' x 20' carpeted den, using the drums and bass setup I have in there, but they're using some cheap-o mic through a 30W Amp to push the vocals - not cutting it at all.

What they're playing: Ramones, U2, White Stripes, Clutch, Sabbath, etc..

About them currently - pretty basic:
- 2 guitars (lead & rythym through 50 & 25W Fenders)
- bass (through 130W Peavey combo)
- (analog) drums (un-mic'd)


Here's where I'm looking for some suggestions...

What they probably need from a PA system:
- min. 4 mic/instrument inputs
- 2 Main and/or 2 Monitors
- min 100 Watts per side
- minor effects capablities

I'm looking to spend about $700, but if that's unrealistic, then I guess I'm spending more...

I've looked at:
- Fender Passport 250, which is nice and portable ($650)
- Yamaha StagePass 300 ($550)
- Kustom 6-input 300W head/2 x Main system ($670)

I know that entry level mic's are roughly $75-$100 per, and cables run about $1 p/ foot or so...

I've been looking on Craigslist, but sinceI don't have any experience with PA systems, it's hard to really know what to avoid.

I tried doing a search on TB for "PA systems", but the search engine doesn't like two-letter searches, and "public and/or address" was pretty useless.

Sorry about being long-winded, but I wanted to provide enough info to get the ball rolling.

Thanks for any help,

Steve

They are pricey, but the Bose L1s are amazing, and so much easier to set up/tear down/transport, you don't need a soundman, you don't need separate monitors & mains, they fit anywhere (corner of a restaurant where a single table used to be? No problem)... Check out these threads:

Does anyone play through a Bose L1 System ?

Bose L1 system: First-time experience from last night

I have a Mackie 16-channel/4-bus mixer and two JBL Eon 15s, total cost about $2500, current value closer to $1k (used). I really, really, really wish the Bose L1s had been around when I was buying a PA 10 years ago. They are worth the $ if you're starting from scratch.

[modulusman]

Try posting on harmony-central live sound forum or pro sound web forum. I would stay away from kustom. Peavey makes good bang for the buck PA gear.

[ack]

Originally Posted by jmac

What is the goal of the PA? Is it just for practice or to play shows?

Right now, the goal is a setup they can practice with a dial in a sound that works for them. They're looking to get on stage at a local high school "band night" sometime this summer.

Thanks to all who have replied to my question.
I'm checking out all the suggestions and becoming more educated with every post.

[ack]

Originally Posted by David Wilson

probably best placed, plus you'll get more responses, in band management & performance forum. moving...

thx. much appreciated.

[Barisaxman]

Just know that getting into owning PA can get very expensive very quickly. Always remember that you get what you pay for. If you spend $700 on a PA, you'll get a $700 PA. Even a moderate full band PA with tops and subs and all the necessities will run up to $10k if you buy decent gear.

I read this on another forum and it's definately something to think about when you get beyond practice PA's: What the point of having thousand of dollars of guitars and amps that people are going to be hearing through a $500 PA.

My suggestion is stick with what you need to rehearse, and if you need more for performance, rent it or contract it out. Pick up a moderately priced powered mixer from Yamaha, Peavey, Yorkville, Mackie, Soundcraft, etc. (stay far away from Behringer, Kustom, or anything under a couple hundred bucks), a couple of decent monitor type speakers and mics and you're good to go. Get speakers like Yamaha Club series monitors that can serve as monitors for rehearsal, and in a pinch can be pole mounted for mains for a small audience. Start there and grow as necessary for what you want it to do.

If you think you'll want a full PA for gigging for the kids, skip the powered mixer and spend the money for a regular mixer and power amp to get started. You can upgrade much easier in the future.

[Stumbo]

Maybe there's some local bands that you can go hear. See what they're using and if you like the sound.

If you're looking to buy everything new, $700 may not get you there.

Keep researching.

I''ve used a couple of used in good condition Peavy SP II's with black widows with xlnt results. As stated above, good bang for the buck. I just picked up a Peavey 250 rms / channel PA amp for $150. So the deals are out there if you look.

Also, remember, you have to haul all this stuff, so covers and cases become important to protect cabinests, heads, mics, cables, etc.

Good luck.

[derrico1]

If the band isn't likely to play any place that won't supply at least a vocal PA, then the problem is how to hear the vocals properly positioned in the rehearsal mix. In this case, forget about buying FOH cabinets--they're overkill for your den. About 250 watts and a couple of monitors would be plenty.

Properly set up, an all-in-one system (like the Passport, for example) should do. At any rate, in a small space like your den, feedback will limit the vocal volume no matter how many watts and speakers you buy.

If the rehearsal space is particularly loud, you might need to tweak the system and the band's set up to get the best results. A couple of tips:

• Unless the band is very quiet, use vocal effects very sparingly (if at all), as they will make the vocals less distinct in the mix.

• Amplify low frequencies takes a lot of a PA muscle. If there is a lot of low bass and kick drum in the room, you don't want to catch that spill in the vocal mics, taxing your small system while further amplifying elements that are already difficult for the vocals to get over. In this case, at least use the low cut switches (if any) on your mixing board. Failing that, try peeling off some of the low frequencies on the vocal mics at the mixer. In many cases like this, using a high-pass filter on the monitor mix will be the best hardware solution.

The best solution of course is to teach the drummer how to control volume, and to teach the rest of the band how to eq their own sounds to fit in the band mix -- but good luck with that with relatively novice players.

[PNS128]

alright we had the EXACT same setup a year ago. i was runnin a 150 watt LINE 6 LD150, guitarist had a 50 watt amp, and we were usin some junk 30 w amp 4 vocals. we bought the following, and they kept up perfectly as we now have LOUD halfstacks (bass 750w)(guitar 150w). heres our setup.
Powered Behringer Mixer:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringe...32-i1175392.gc

PA'S(yes i know the brand, trust me THEY WORK
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ker?sku=608002 x2 by the way

speaker stands (best purchase i ever made)
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...and?sku=450823

people r gonna criticize this post. but trust me the PA'S keep up more than we even need them to. theyll cover u for a looooooonnng time. the mixer has 99 effects and 16 channels. the speaker stands made a huge difference once we got the halfstacks, it made it WAYYYYY louder and cut through the mixer 100 percent.
Total NEW: $694. pick up some mic cables if u dont have them and your golden =D

[BetterBottomEnd]

Check out some of the powered mixers and maybe even the packages from Carvin. Just for practicing some like this would be fine and if you add some monitors you could do some small shows.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by PNS128

alright we had the EXACT same setup a year ago. i was runnin a 150 watt LINE 6 LD150, guitarist had a 50 watt amp, and we were usin some junk 30 w amp 4 vocals. we bought the following, and they kept up perfectly as we now have LOUD halfstacks (bass 750w)(guitar 150w). heres our setup.
Powered Behringer Mixer:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringe...32-i1175392.gc

PA'S(yes i know the brand, trust me THEY WORK
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ker?sku=608002 x2 by the way

speaker stands (best purchase i ever made)
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...and?sku=450823

people r gonna criticize this post. but trust me the PA'S keep up more than we even need them to. theyll cover u for a looooooonnng time. the mixer has 99 effects and 16 channels. the speaker stands made a huge difference once we got the halfstacks, it made it WAYYYYY louder and cut through the mixer 100 percent.
Total NEW: $694. pick up some mic cables if u dont have them and your golden =D

I am sure that PA sounds like crap to anyone who knows better.

[ack]

Thanks to all who responded.
After lots of research and visiting retails stores (I almost bought the Carvin 6-channel powered amp system), I decided on a Samson 10-channel mixer with a 300W powered PA.

I set it up last night and the kids tried it out today at practice. It has given great definition to their sound and a must better representation of how they mix sonically.

It's also simple enough that a quick 10-minute tutorial has them understanding the basic functions of the mixer unit.

I really like the fact that I can run my bass-trainer through it, mix in vocals and my bass into a pair of headphones without powering up the amp.

I really appreciate all the input you all provided - it helped me make a good decision.

Steve

[SERPENT865]

Check out Carvin they have some nicely priced good quality stuff.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by ack

Thanks to all who responded.
I decided on a Samson 10-channel mixer with a 300W powered PA.

Is the 300w powered PA include speakers and amp?

Can you post some pictures?