PA systems and such

[RS66LB]

Originally Posted by pushbuttonfour

First of all I'd like to thank everyone for answering my various other questions, and I'd also like to post one or two more. Currently, everything in my band practice sounds fine except the vocals, which are too quiet, muffled, and screech every few minutes (the terrible feedback screech). I can only assume it is because of the PA system, because I am using a Shure sm57 mic, which is supposedly the industry standard for vocals (on a small budget, that is).

My question is, what microphone amp (or PA system) has good quality and can compete with drums and 15 watt guitar amps? Obviously I don't want to break the bank, so I'm just looking for the lowest passable amp that is loud and has acceptable quality (doesn't make your voice sound "bad," like a football game announcer or something.)

Thanks again to everyone for all the help; I'm already loving this forum after a few days.

Seems most pa speakers with passive crossovers usually have the crossover point perfect for pre recorded music but not so great for live vocals, usually the vocals sound like a combination of 'muffled' mixed with occasional high frequency feedback. To fix this issue you need to bypass the internal crossover going to the woofer -essentially all you want to do is detatch the current internal speaker wires going to the woofer (making sure to clip them then put electrical tape over them so they can never short out) and then solder a second set of wires going from the cabinets jack straight to the woofer. Basically this allows the woofer to receive all the upper mids it wasn't previously getting which in turn makes the speaker seem louder and more defined, basically there is less stress on the high frequency driver since the volume doesn't need to be cranked, plus you get cleaner mids due to the 12" or 15" speaker taking on the upper mids the 1" driver wasn't designed to do, additionally there is less stress on the amp since the crossover components for the woofer are bypassed. Of course make sure you don't alter any of the wiring for the 'horn' since the crossover for high frequency drivers is a must.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by RS66LB

Seems most pa speakers with passive crossovers usually have the crossover point perfect for pre recorded music but not so great for live vocals, usually the vocals sound like a combination of 'muffled' mixed with occasional high frequency feedback. To fix this issue you need to bypass the internal crossover going to the woofer -essentially all you want to do is detatch the current internal speaker wires going to the woofer (making sure to clip them then put electrical tape over them so they can never short out) and then solder a second set of wires going from the cabinets jack straight to the woofer. Basically this allows the woofer to receive all the upper mids it wasn't previously getting which in turn makes the speaker seem louder and more defined, basically there is less stress on the high frequency driver since the volume doesn't need to be cranked, plus you get cleaner mids due to the 12" or 15" speaker taking on the upper mids the 1" driver wasn't designed to do, additionally there is less stress on the amp since the crossover components for the woofer are bypassed. Of course make sure you don't alter any of the wiring for the 'horn' since the crossover for high frequency drivers is a must.

This is just so wrong.

[RS66LB]

[quote=modulusman;13644790]This is just so wrong.[/QUO....no explanation given to back up your reasoning?...try again and make sure to give valid points that counteract a method thats been proven many times

[pflash4001]

The xover was put there for a reason. I can see you making this point for one or two particular models of speaker, but doing this as a general practice, I think is asking for trouble.

[modulusman]

[quote=RS66LB;13645328]

Originally Posted by modulusman

This is just so wrong.[/QUO....no explanation given to back up your reasoning?...try again and make sure to give valid points that counteract a method thats been proven many times

What model PA speaker have you did this with? BTW any warranty would probably not be honored after your little aftermarket mod.

[RS66LB]

[quote=pflash4001;13645938]The xover was put there for a reason. I can see you making this point for one or two particular models of speaker, but doing this as a general practice, I think is asking for trouble.[/QU

The crossover points for most 2 way designs is typically in the 2-2.5 khz area, the manufactor's crossover design is set up to maintain a smooth transition at the crossover point while also factoring in other issues (comb filtering due to high frequency 'beaming' etc) -lots of thought and analysis went into these designs and as mentioned work beautifully for pre-recorded music and low level PA, however A/B comparing a raw 12" speaker connected to a 2.2khz crossover against the same type 12" speaker with no crossover showcases how much more definition is available in the 3-4 khz range, this becomes especially obvious when vocals are used as the test source. As mentioned you obtain far cleaner and louder mids, because of this less output from the amp is needed which combined with one less coil (from the crossover) keeps the amp running easier plus the compression driver is not being pushed into achieving mid definition its not capable of doing. Essentially most 2 way systems are set up as glorified home stereo speakers which simply mean they smooth out the crucial SPL needed in the vocal range.

[RS66LB]

[quote=modulusman;13646017]

Originally Posted by RS66LB

What model PA speaker have you did this with? BTW any warranty would probably not be honored after your little aftermarket mod.

3 pairs of Peavey PR-12's, one pair of PR-15's, 1 pair of of Yamaha S112's and a pair of S115's, an old Samson 12" 2-way pair, a pair of JBL JRX125's (leaving the bottom 'sub' 15" untouched), 2 pairs of JBL PRX412M's (12" monitors with all 4 used by a band as their mains) , an older Behringer 2 way pair with 15's, a pair of Carvin LS-1502's plus a just finished 'single' Mackie C300Z ...and still waiting for technical explanation as to why "this is just so wrong" -I understand your need to add an opinion however at least bring a few engineering counterpoints to the table instead of tossing out blanket statements with no explanation.

[Stone Soup]

A properly designed box will have the crossover points set in such a way as to take advantage of the speaker responses and get the best possible sound reproduction. I think what you're saying, RS66LB, is that you believe you know better than the manufacturers do.

You may be correct, in the case of some extreme low end/consumer grade speaker enclosures using generic crossovers, but you are absolutely NOT correct in every instance. Throwing your oddly mis-informed and generalized statement out for public consumption is irresponsible.

[modulusman]

[quote=RS66LB;13654032]

Originally Posted by modulusman

3 pairs of Peavey PR-12's, one pair of PR-15's, 1 pair of of Yamaha S112's and a pair of S115's, an old Samson 12" 2-way pair, a pair of JBL JRX125's (leaving the bottom 'sub' 15" untouched), 2 pairs of JBL PRX412M's (12" monitors with all 4 used by a band as their mains) , an older Behringer 2 way pair with 15's, a pair of Carvin LS-1502's plus a just finished 'single' Mackie C300Z ...and still waiting for technical explanation as to why "this is just so wrong" -I understand your need to add an opinion however at least bring a few engineering counterpoints to the table instead of tossing out blanket statements with no explanation.

Probably anything you could do would help most of those boxes you listed. The JRX 125 sucks an so do the Peaveys
. If you want to find out if you are making those speakers sound better without causing damage post over here. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...amp-Production An engineer will let you no if you are on to something or not.

[RS66LB]

[quote=Stone Soup;13654317]A properly designed box will have the crossover points set in such a way as to take advantage of the speaker responses and get the best possible sound reproduction. I think what you're saying, RS66LB, is that you believe you know better than the manufacturers do.

You may be correct, in the case of some extreme low end/consumer grade speaker enclosures using generic crossovers, but you are absolutely NOT correct in every instance. Throwing your oddly mis-informed and generalized statement out for public consumption is irresponsible.[/QUOTE

If you had bothered to read my previous posts you might have read how respectful mention was made of the detailed analysis performed by various companies to achieve proper time domain issues, flat response etc. with regards to their crossover point choices however there was never mention of the mod being applicable in 'all' instances -to state that I did so is ironically irresponsible in and of itself, additionally I'd like to know and understand the technical details of your counterpoints since in all applications of the afore mentioned mod a blatent 'definition' increase happens while power use is reduced due to the afore mentioned upper mid band efficiency rise...btw-please explain "oddly mis-informed" -you obviously know things which I and the receipients of this mod must not have been hearing for the last 7 years

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by RS66LB

you obviously know things which I and the receipients of this mod must not have been hearing for the last 7 years

Your mod doesn't move the crossover point to a better place, it eliminates the low pass on the woofer, leaving the woofer to make some of the same frequencies as the mid/high driver. Kind of defeats the idea of the crossover somewhat, don't you think? Now you have two unlike drivers producing some of the same frequencies at the same time.

And what is this difference you speak of, between vocals in recorded music and vocals in live music, that I seem to have missed all my life?

[RS66LB]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

Your mod doesn't move the crossover point to a better place, it eliminates the low pass on the woofer, leaving the woofer to make some of the same frequencies as the mid/high driver. Kind of defeats the idea of the crossover somewhat, don't you think? Now you have two unlike drivers producing some of the same frequencies at the same time.

And what is this difference you speak of, between vocals in recorded music and vocals in live music, that I seem to have missed all my life?

You're 100% correct in that there would be 2 unlike sources at different physical points reproducing the same frequencies, this doesn't typically cause noticable phase cancellations but does have effects on directional response which would have otherwise been lessened by use of the typical well designed crossover -most modern passive crossovers do a reasonable job at maintaining consistant directional response and of course frequency seperation which has the added benefit of filtering out harmful bass and mid band frequencies going to the compression driver. The reason I'm for bypassing the low pass portion in a entry level speakers crossover is to simply increase mid band clarity -it's quite common for small and large bands alike to have cluttered frequencies in the 2-4 khz area (overly loud snares, various cymbals, electric guitars etc.) -to cut through this mess requires something with more 'area' then a 1" compression driver can deal with, since many entry level (stamped frame) 12" speakers extend out past 4 khz they do a remarkable job of adding upper mid definition to vocals and naturally roll off beyond their frequency response anyway. The other point of view is that vocals are not so distant (frequency wise) from an electric guitar, if a guitar was going through a single 12" speaker with a frequency range of 80-4.5 khz and it had a passive crossover set at 2.3 khz the tone would sound sluggish and lackluster -if you used a 1" compression driver to take care of the cut off frequencies it might sound ok at low levels but would never sound good when turned up. I know these points may seem convoluted however in most start up bands entry level equipment is the norm -as is lack of backline volume control, its in these situations that the afore mentioned mod works however I don't reccomend it being used in more professional set up's -in most orchestras and wedding bands there is a great deal of control, an overly emphisised mid band might come across as a bit harsh as opposed to a high fidelity pro speaker. Anyway have a great day and take care