Playing Schism by Tool... noticed a common issue with PA.

DrSmaggs · #1 11-08-2010, 03:19 PM

video link first...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDM3Y8xAIJg Watch in HD if you can or it sounds much worse and looks like poop.

Anyway, here's my thing.

I have this Sadowsky bass in the video...

http://sadowsky.com/stock/view/4480.html

The bass produces a very decent amount of natural midrange and I have a generous, but not overkill amount of midrange on my 8x10... BUT...

I noticed that most of my sound is coming from the PA... My 8x10 is a little far off to stage right in the video.

I've never really given it a ton of attention until now, but does anyone else notice that bass guitar just gets some low end and too much clickety treble through a PA?

Seriously... you'll really notice it once the main lick starts for the song.

Any suggestions? talk to the sound engineers? I'm actually surprised that I never gave this much thought before.

Any input or experience would help me out a great deal. I know how some sound guys can be and I want to make sure I'm complimentary and don't accidentally come off as insulting next time I work with sound guys! So far, I've always gotten along with any sound engineers I work with, though.

Thanks so much for reading this!!!

DrSmaggs · #2 11-08-2010, 03:22 PM

I did forget to include... the song has nothing to do with my posting... it's just that I noticed that on stage, my tone was crisp and good, but it's all clickety once I watched the video. The HD cam did a good job of picking up the full range and when I was playing alone, I could pick out the sound of my amp tucked in the back along with the dominating sound of the PA that I found out I didn't like so much.

Once again... thanks for taking the time to read... Sorry for typing so much!

christoph h. · #3 11-08-2010, 06:27 PM

Hm, to be honest: The sound *is* a bit clicky, but I've seen a lot of youtube clips with worse sound. You can still hear the pitch of the note very well. My guess is that it probably sounded quite good "live in the house".

Regarding the sound man, maybe you can try talking with him "about the bass"? Something like: "Hey, my bass has a lot of highs and tends to sound a bit clicky through the PA, can yo watch out for that?" - even though that's probably not true at all, it will make him aware of the issue and your taste.

But in the end, the "real" advice I can give from experience is to simply trust the sound man. Dial in a sound that you like and that inspires you to play on stage. There's not much you can do if the sound man sucks. If he asks you to do something, just do it if it doesn't hurt too much. Make his job easier and the results will be better.

DrSmaggs · #4 11-08-2010, 08:05 PM

I agree completely. I'm always curteous and I never put stress or ask anything of my sound engineers, since they have usually got too much on their plate as it is with the other local bands acting like primadonnas with their setups.

I did make a few minor tweaks to my EQ to reduce the treble and I boosted my middle mids a tad more... just a bit to hopefully balance things out a little more.

I listened to Digital Summer, who was our headliner, and they sounded super muddy and bass guitar heavy. I couldn't even hear the guitars... just drums, vocals and bass... It very well could just have been the way the place was set up and the PA itself... Now that I put a bit more thought into things, the PA did seem a bit small for an outdoor gig.

However, I do prefer to stick with being good with my sound guys. I always get compliments when I meet a new sound guy for being easy to work with and having a good tone right off the gate. Plus, I never turn my stage volume up unless I'm asked and I always make sure it's not too high during checks.

hachi kid · #5 11-08-2010, 08:16 PM

that actually sounds great to me. try using your fingers...it'd mellow the tone out more.

FrenchAK · #6 11-08-2010, 08:16 PM

I don't think it sounds too bad, very similar to how the bass sounds in the original song - at least on my computer speakers. Possibly a bit clicky, but nothing outrageous. I don't know if it was just me or the video quality, but it sounded like you were missing a note or two during the main riff.

DrSmaggs · #7 11-08-2010, 08:22 PM

nope, all the hammer-ons and picking was there, it just isn't cutting through. I have a subwoofer on my computer and I can hear a lot and the youtube video is of the same quality as the HD video from teh cam... the microphones on the cam did catch it all. I actually walked out front in the middle of one of our songs and it did seem a bit clickety and lacking in midrange... almost as if the middle and low mids were scooped.

Justin Chancellor's tone is SUPER middy and punchy you can really hear the difference in his recorded and live playing. I'm thinking my mids got reduced on the FOH... my amp is set up right, but my DI is at the mercy of the person controlling the PA and the mixer was at the side of the stage instead of FOH like most venues.

I'll try my new EQ settings live on the 19th and use the cam again and see what I get. Although we won't be playing schism again... we change our set all the time. Mostly originals with maybe one cover in there in a 50 minute set.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input!

Gasman · #8 11-08-2010, 08:27 PM

Sounds ok to me, actually. Check out some of Tool's live material on youtube and it's pretty clicky as well. I don't know if your reference was someone in the audience or youtube, but let's face it- youtube does not make live bass sound very good.

DrSmaggs · #9 11-08-2010, 08:31 PM

thanks, Gasman

I<34080 · #10 11-08-2010, 08:40 PM

yeah, when I listened (headphones) it was hardly "clicky", if you wanted a more Chancellor-esque sound you could even use more treble and mids.

Gearhead17 · #11 11-08-2010, 09:09 PM

Your bass tone did come through on the video. You have a Sadowsky right? The Sadowsky pre-amp is setup to give you a dip at the center frequency of 300hz as you turn up the treble and bass knobs. What signal did you send the soundguy? Was it right off of your bass? Or did you have a mic on your cab?

The effects came through really clearly.

I should add, it was really well done!

DrSmaggs · #12 11-08-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I<34080

yeah, when I listened (headphones) it was hardly "clicky", if you wanted a more Chancellor-esque sound you could even use more treble and mids.

That very well could be. Maybe I'll leave the highs where they are and just stick a little more mids in and see how I like it!

You all have been great! Once again, I'm very appreciative of any criticism, comments or otherwise!

Geddyfleaharris · #13 11-10-2010, 09:21 AM

Not clicky at all to my ears. I like a trebly, clanky sound. Sounded great. You guys played it well. Thought I heard a couple of flat spots from your singer but meh no worries.

Addni · #14 11-13-2010, 03:16 AM

If you can, ask the soundguy to mic up the cab.

When I'm doing FOH i Usually take DI and a miced up signal from the bass cab (using Shure SM7b) and then blend to taste, the cab mic usually gives most of the punch while the DI produces the clarity.

When mixing bass players using distortion, i usually keep the DI pre-distortion (Bass->DI->Distortion Pedal->Amp) and use the Mic to get the distortioned sound, but still have the option to mix in some clarity with the DI signal.

Epitaph04 · #15 11-13-2010, 03:34 AM

I just listened on my ipod (through some sennheiser earbuds) and it sounded great! I'm not too into Tool but I definitely enjoyed the performance. Bass playing was great, as well as the drumming.