Please help my band sound good live

[Colonel_Claypoo]

hey folks,

my band and i are running into trouble with sound when playing live gigs.
the low end and clarity is just not there. we usually play before 100-300 people.

our tuning is pretty low at dropped A and
live we trigger kicks and occasionally the snare.

we've got 2 guitarists doing the vocals, me on bass and drums.

i'd appreciate any input on how you would make our music translate well in a live situation.

thanks a lot!

[baba]

Need much more info. What are you using for sound reinforcement now? I'm assuming you have an existing PA? If so, whatcha got?

[mambo4]

you may also have to face the fact that "low end" and "clarity" are not exactly friends.

In my experience "low end" clarity actually translates to the lower-mids and mid-mid-range EQ. Consider if you've ever heard a "Phat "bass kick really come through on a crappy, small stereo. That bass kick isn't "phat" because of a huge low end (like below 100hz), it's "phat" because of a mid range boost that gives it clarity and punch.

Also consider that clarity comes from EQ separation, where each instrument more or less occupies a separate range of the frequency spectrum, not piling up all the instruments in the bass end of the EQ spectrum.

My experience is mostly with in-house PA systems, and I never had to emphasize the bass...from what I've read on TB and elsewhere, the problem is usually the opposite: too much boom in the room.

in short: try cutting the bass and see if it clears up...

alos, try this thread

[Colonel_Claypoo]

Originally Posted by baba

Need much more info. What are you using for sound reinforcement now? I'm assuming you have an existing PA? If so, whatcha got?

well, we're actually without PA support which means we have to rely on the venue's PA support.

i don't even know where to start. we were thinking of going ampless on stage and use in-ears because we want to play with a klick and also we have a few samples to be played during the show.

that would ultimately mean that all the sound would come from amps' DIs and we'd have to rely on PA support.
i'm in particular not happy with that because i can't imagine not having my cabs behind me -love the feel you know?

but in order to achieve a good sound and performance we cannot be blasting the music we play from stage otherwise it would sound like utter crap we feel.

what do you guys think?

thanks

[Nick Kay]

I think everyone in the band needs to take a step back and realize where their instruments are supposed to sit in the mix.

In metal (which I assume you're playing, by the Drop A tuning), especially the more extreme styles, the guitarists tend to want to have a big, chunky bottom, a little glitter up top, and nothing in between. This is bass-ackwards thinking, in terms of clarity. It doesn't work on bass, either. Contrary to the name, you don't hear a bass in the bass spectrum - it's mostly mids for tonality and intelligibility.

So, get everybody to put their EQ knobs to noon, then start rehearsal. If you're still lacking clarity, cut bass and boost mids on those guitars and the bass. Continue until you can hear yourselves properly.

Also worth looking into: are you playing too loud with the speakers all pointed at places they shouldn't be pointing? Get those speakers pointed at your ears instead of your ankles. I guarantee you'll all want to turn down a bit, which leads to a better level of clarity.

EDIT: Just listened to one of the tracks on your myspace. Definitely sounds like your guitarists are into that big, chunky low-end that gets everyone covered in mud when you put it into a live context. Really cool tracks, but trying to translate that exact sound into a live context will be extremely difficult without GREAT monitors and awesome engineers on FOH and the monitor desk. Pump those mids up, cut back on the low-end on those guitars. The bass could definitely do with some of the same treatment - you can barely hear it except for a dull rumble.

[modulusman]

Nick Kay, Excellent post!

[Colonel_Claypoo]

Originally Posted by Nick Kay

I think everyone in the band needs to take a step back and realize where their instruments are supposed to sit in the mix.

In metal (which I assume you're playing, by the Drop A tuning), especially the more extreme styles, the guitarists tend to want to have a big, chunky bottom, a little glitter up top, and nothing in between. This is bass-ackwards thinking, in terms of clarity. It doesn't work on bass, either. Contrary to the name, you don't hear a bass in the bass spectrum - it's mostly mids for tonality and intelligibility.

So, get everybody to put their EQ knobs to noon, then start rehearsal. If you're still lacking clarity, cut bass and boost mids on those guitars and the bass. Continue until you can hear yourselves properly.

Also worth looking into: are you playing too loud with the speakers all pointed at places they shouldn't be pointing? Get those speakers pointed at your ears instead of your ankles. I guarantee you'll all want to turn down a bit, which leads to a better level of clarity.

EDIT: Just listened to one of the tracks on your myspace. Definitely sounds like your guitarists are into that big, chunky low-end that gets everyone covered in mud when you put it into a live context. Really cool tracks, but trying to translate that exact sound into a live context will be extremely difficult without GREAT monitors and awesome engineers on FOH and the monitor desk. Pump those mids up, cut back on the low-end on those guitars. The bass could definitely do with some of the same treatment - you can barely hear it except for a dull rumble.

thanks a bunge nick kay. i appreciate your help and thanks for the comment on my band's music
i've got rehearsal today and we're going to try out what you suggested.

i'll report back

[bassman1185]

I listened to your myspace as well, and I dig the tunes a lot. I will agree with what Nick said about putting some of the mids back in, and I'll even go so far as to say that your guitarists should bring their gain down a bit. I can definitely see a sound like yours not transferring well to the stage from the studio. In the studio you can get away with a lot more than you can live.

[Colonel_Claypoo]

thanks bassman1185,

i've just returned from rehearsal and we could improve the sound a bit.
first off, the guitarists cut some of their bass frequencies and lowered the amount of distortion. both of that things helped quite a lot.

by the way, does anybody know where the bass frequencies are set with guitar amps?

now as for the bass i tried to lift up my cab, put it on a refridgerator.
while i could hear the mids and highs a lot better, the 'pumping' bass was gone completely. the very deep bass frequencies remained i guess but the range where the earth shaking bass is happening wasn't there anymore. i suppose we're talking about the 80-100hz range here.

why is that? when i put my cab back on the floor, the bass is really there supporting the music but then i can't hear much definition in my tone...

it's not that easy...

[modulusman]

Your cab is coupling with the floor.

[Colonel_Claypoo]

Originally Posted by modulusman

Your cab is coupling with the floor.

which can be good or bad right?
in this case it gives me the required bottom end in need for our sound. what's the disadvantage? i guess live it could sound to boomy?

[Nick Kay]

Originally Posted by Colonel_Claypoo

which can be good or bad right?
in this case it gives me the required bottom end in need for our sound. what's the disadvantage? i guess live it could sound to boomy?

Correct! You don't need to provide the earth-shaking lows live. It means less definition and higher on-stage volume. Let the PA's subs make the room shake, you need to focus on hearing what you're playing.

[RicPlaya]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Colonel_Claypoo

thanks bassman1185,

i've just returned from rehearsal and we could improve the sound a bit.
first off, the guitarists cut some of their bass frequencies and lowered the amount of distortion. both of that things helped quite a lot.

by the way, does anybody know where the bass frequencies are set with guitar amps?

Guitars as a rule of thumb should not have a lot of bass in their tone. Cutting out some distortion and most fo the bass is a good starting point. Sure the guitar players may not be too happy, but for the overall sound and mix of the band it is crutial. Guitars should have a good mid range punch..not a low end presence.

now as for the bass i tried to lift up my cab, put it on a refridgerator.
while i could hear the mids and highs a lot better, the 'pumping' bass was gone completely. the very deep bass frequencies remained i guess but the range where the earth shaking bass is happening wasn't there anymore. i suppose we're talking about the 80-100hz range here.

why is that? when i put my cab back on the floor, the bass is really there supporting the music but then i can't hear much definition in my tone...

Yes, put your cab on the floor. Hopefully since the guitars players have cleaned up thier tone you adding some booty to your tone should make you heard in the mix again.

Also you mentioned samples and triggers, you should look at how these are EQ'd and make sure your not competing with any of these sounds as well. You are the bass..you should be the lowest instrument in the mix.

it's not that easy...

Sound is an artform in itself and it takes years to master.
When your starting out KISS..keep it simple, stripped down and don't worry about all the fancy sound effects right now. Research and ask questions like you have been!

Nick Kay: I think everyone in the band needs to take a step back and realize where their instruments are supposed to sit in the mix.

Nick hit the nail on the head, make sure the instruements and samples ( I would worry about getting everything dialed in before adding this stuff, just IMO) all have seperation and can be heard in the mix. If your cab is off the ground taking your bass out of your tone making you compete with the guitars, or if the guitars are to bassy and competing with you..I think both instruments should meet in the middle and everyone needs to get into their EQ's and stop competing.