Powered Mixer not powerful enough... what's my next move?

officialjlox · #1 11-30-2010, 04:24 PM

Ok, so here's my predicament. I'm certain this topic has been discussed ad nauseum but I'm looking for some specifics. Keep in mind I am a TOTAL pa novice, and assume in all cases that I know the bare minimum/nothing.

Here's the situation. The singer in my band went out and got a PA for a show at the last minute, and we did not have a good sound at all. Yes, I know more research should've been done, and I've already discussed that with everyone, but the bottom line is that she bought it, we got it, and now we're stuck with it and need to make it work.

We're going to need it for rehearsals as well as gigs in small clubs and it doesn't have the power to push her even just her vocals through effectively.

We have a small powered board found here
http://www.samsontech.com/products/p...D=68&brandID=2

as well as two speakers shown here
http://www.samash.com/p/S15CDH-PA-Speaker_-49964329

The purchase came as an all-in-one deal with a rack (decent) as well as a power conditioner and a "sonic optimizer"

We've been using hourly rehearsal spaces as of now so we haven't had a chance to use it at a rehearsal yet, but judging from what we saw at the show, it could not push her vocals up far enough in the mix. We had to turn our amps waayyy down and she still couldn't be heard by most of the small venue.

We're moving into our own space Jan 1, and I wanted to buy the band a christmas/"house warming" gift to aid with the PA. My question, quite simply, is what is my best option? I'm looking for basically one single piece that will help at least a small amount. I have about 6-700$ to spend on it. I'm not hoping that we're going to have the power to play MSG with this one purchase, but I just need it to push vocals over a heavy alt-rock band to the point where she can be heard clearly.

What's my best play?

R. Laevinus · #2 11-30-2010, 05:53 PM

I'm not personally familiar with either that board or those cabs, but I'm going to go out on a limb and venture to suggest that your cabs are probably the limiting factor. The board is rated at 250w per side, which ought to be more than enough juice, even if the specs are overstated.

I'd invest in a pair of good 4-ohm PA cabs, the best you can afford. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...air?sku=600347 ought to work, even though they're 8-ohm cabs, which will reduce the output power.

Also, do all the normal things, like leave your EQ as close to flat as possible, crank the mike gain until just before clipping, and apply master section power to taste. Use of a compressor might help, too.

Also, what kind of mike are you using? A crappy mike will limit your vocal volume, of course.

4Mal · #3 11-30-2010, 07:26 PM

250 a side into 4 ohms is pretty skinny IMO. Unfortunately the board does not appear to have a post main fader output other than the speaker level. If it did, you could use that to drive a power amp and a better set of PA speakers, then dedicate the onboard power and your current speaks to monitor use.

As it is, that board seems to be a limiting factor. A used Yamaha EMX 5000/12 - heck even the 512 lunch pail or the Soundcraft Gigrac1000 - would have been better bets IMO.

If by some chance the stereo faders do affect the level sent to the main, post EQ INSERTS - a larger power amp and better speaker set would be the thing ...

PopaWoody · #4 11-30-2010, 07:37 PM

This should work just fine for you in a small venue. 500 watts of power for vocals should be more than sufficient if you keep your instruments and drums at a level suitable to the room.

It sounds more like something was not dialed in right. Drop the sonic maximizer from the inserts....or wherever you have it in. Then do what was suggested about setting the mic gains to near clip. Set the stereo faders to unity and adjust each channel to just below feedback.

If she can't get over you with that setup either she has weak pipes or your band is too damn loud

officialjlox · #5 11-30-2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PopaWoody

This should work just fine for you in a small venue. 500 watts of power for vocals should be more than sufficient if you keep your instruments and drums at a level suitable to the room.

It sounds more like something was not dialed in right. Drop the sonic maximizer from the inserts....or wherever you have it in. Then do what was suggested about setting the mic gains to near clip. Set the stereo faders to unity and adjust each channel to just below feedback.

If she can't get over you with that setup either she has weak pipes or your band is too damn loud

I originally thought we were too loud too, but we dropped our volume during the second set after hearing from people that the vocals were getting buried. We dropped the amps down to just above the drums, and still had a problem with her being heard without tremendous feedback. I will try the EQing and settings suggestions you guys made here first and then see what happens

officialjlox · #6 11-30-2010, 07:40 PM

also we didn't use the sonic optimizer for the night in question, as i honestly have no idea what it is and we were in a bit of a rush set up wise

gumtownbassman · #7 11-30-2010, 07:53 PM

Your powered mixer will do 250 wats per side into FOUR ohms, the speakers are rated at 175 watts RMS and are most likely 8 ohms each and the desk power amp will only deliver around 150 watts at that load.
You have a few options to compliment the existing gear..
Use the speakers for stage monitors and get some 2 x 15 + horn POWERED speakers such as the Mackie types http://www.mackie.com/products/hd1531/.

or Get 2 more of the same speakers and run 2 each side to load the amp and produce full power.

At the end of the day here are 2 lines of wisdom...
1.) "you get what you pay for"

2.) "you can't polish a turd"

modulusman · #8 11-30-2010, 08:09 PM

Sell the whole mess and start over.

The sonic optimizer is more likely a sonic sodomizer.

musicman7722 · #9 12-01-2010, 05:25 AM

The board does have a mono out which i don't think is short for monitor out. Thought I use and prefer the QSC powered cabinets I also use these Plye powere 12" for tops and monitors. You could a pair of these for under $700 and use those for the fronts and then use the onboard powere and existing speakers for monitors.

http://www.pyleaudio.com/itemdetail.asp?brand=&cat1=Pro Audio&cat2=PA Cabinets&model=PPHP120A

DWBass · #10 12-01-2010, 05:34 AM

2 things (most likely mentioned already). You're only pushing an 8ohm load so you're getting half of the 500 total watts. Secondly, you have no monitors so you're probably boosting the volume in an effort to hear the vocals to the point of feedback. The band is probably too loud as it is. I would get some powered mains and a powered sub (or 2) to compensate for the lack of total power from that mixer.

MrDOS · #11 12-01-2010, 05:49 AM

Some good advice so far, but here's what I would do.
1) keep it simple with what you have - no radical EQ settings, turn OFF the DSP (effects) unless the room is completely dry
2) Start with either a quality powered monitor, or power amp and monitor. Use one of the aux outs for the monitor send

What type of guitar/bass amps are you running? What type of vocal mic(s)? How experienced are the band members at playing in a band/listening to adjust volume to the rest of the band members?

officialjlox · #12 12-01-2010, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrDOS

What type of guitar/bass amps are you running? What type of vocal mic(s)? How experienced are the band members at playing in a band/listening to adjust volume to the rest of the band members?

This is my band that i play guitar for (sorry lol) so our amps are a Mesa F-50 through a vox 412 cab, and for bass is a Hartke HA4000 through a SWR Triad. The mic I'm not sure about, which I'm sure has something to do with it.

We have been booking our own shows lately at local places to afford ourselves some extra set time/soundchecks etc. during which we realized that the vocals are very low. We set our amps low (personally, my guitar amp was set to about a 2, right at the point where it goes from audible to nearly non-existant) our bassist's amp was set lower than mine. Our drummer is not THE most dynamic drummer of all time, but doesn't play that hard to begin with, and was playing less than how he does at rehearsals etc.

After hearing from people that they still couldn't hear the vocals we tried to fix it during the break and return for the second set with no luck. our amps were set to the point where a closed hi-hat/snare/kick beat was in danger of making us disappear, and we were getting tremendous feedback from the PA. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with our singer futzing with it in between songs, but overall it was concerning.

I like the powered speaker/use the existing as monitors idea because it seemingly would take care of both the power problem as well as the no-monitor problem all at once. (at least to some degree)

Bottom line is this: I know the setup is not great. I personally would not have bought this setup, but then again I wouldn't have waited til last minute to buy a PA in general. I know there are MULTIPLE things wrong with this setup that need fixing, but all I'm looking to do here is take the first and most reasonable step. This would be a gift to the band, and an investment in our overall sound. Like I said earlier, I'm not looking to work a miracle, just improve the sound as much as I can with one purchase

Joe Smithberger · #13 12-01-2010, 06:01 AM

If you are playing bars and relatively small rooms, you should be OK with that rig for now. If it were me, I would look at getting another pair of 8 ohm speakers. Then run left as mains and right as monitors with a total load of 4 ohms per side. You have EQ on left and right to help with your feedback and the monitors will help your singer hear and help add sound in the room. Another trick is to cut the low frequencies on the PA (vocals only right?) to get you some more headroom and cut. You don't need anything below 100 hz for vocals.

DRafalske · #14 12-01-2010, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by officialjlox

our amps were set to the point where a closed hi-hat/snare/kick beat was in danger of making us disappear, and we were getting tremendous feedback from the PA. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with our singer futzing with it in between songs, but overall it was concerning.

If this is really true, then something is seriously wrong. Your PA rig is small and not all that powerful, but on paper it should be more than enough for a smaller club or bar.
Did you buy it used or new? Almost sounds like it's not in good working condition.

D

officialjlox · #15 12-01-2010, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRafalske

If this is really true, then something is seriously wrong. Your PA rig is small and not all that powerful, but on paper it should be more than enough for a smaller club or bar.
Did you buy it used or new? Almost sounds like it's not in good working condition.

D

used. it also wouldn't surprise me if something was wrong with it. our singer bought it on a whimb without really consulting anyone because she waited to the last second.

PopaWoody · #16 12-01-2010, 07:00 AM

What freq was the feedback? high or low? cut the highs if the knee is above 10k boost mids...do not scoop the vocals like a bass. That worked great for volume for our female singer.

We keep our amps low 2 or 3 ...our drummer is a major in groove and dynamics. I feel fortunate to be working with the skill set of these people.

officialjlox · #17 12-01-2010, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PopaWoody

What freq was the feedback? high or low? cut the highs if the knee is above 10k boost mids...do not scoop the vocals like a bass. That worked great for volume for our female singer.

We keep our amps low 2 or 3 ...our drummer is a major in groove and dynamics. I feel fortunate to be working with the skill set of these people.

Yeah, my bassist in this band is great with dynamics and setting his amp to fit the mix. In terms of amp wars I'm really glad to have him. Our drummer isn't terrible, but he does have a hard time getting to a mezzo piano on occasion.

The feedback was high. i actually tried boosting mids but like i said I didn't really have time to properly play with eq settings. Once we get in our own space Jan 1 I'm gonna take the day and play with the EQ and see where we're at.

Vinny D · #18 12-01-2010, 07:10 AM

Sometimes you have to just cut your losses......this is one of those times.
Unless your band is just acoustic guitar and vocals that PA setup you have is not going to cut it.
Yes, you can run around and buy more stuff to try and get what you have to work...but in the end even if you make it a little better, it still is going to come up short.

Sell it, buy an un-powered board and use powered speakers.
This way you have no guess work on amplifiers and if the speakers are too big/small.

Bassdirty · #19 12-01-2010, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWBass

2 things (most likely mentioned already). You're only pushing an 8ohm load so you're getting half of the 500 total watts. Secondly, you have no monitors so you're probably boosting the volume in an effort to hear the vocals to the point of feedback. The band is probably too loud as it is. I would get some powered mains and a powered sub (or 2) to compensate for the lack of total power from that mixer.

+1

modulusman · #20 12-01-2010, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny D

Sometimes you have to just cut your losses......this is one of those times.
Unless your band is just acoustic guitar and vocals that PA setup you have is not going to cut it.
Yes, you can run around and buy more stuff to try and get what you have to work...but in the end even if you make it a little better, it still is going to come up short.

Sell it, buy an un-powered board and use powered speakers.
This way you have no guess work on amplifiers and if the speakers are too big/small.

+ one on the un-powered board, powered speakers. I posted earlier about starting over and this is your best option. That gear is all junk. Tell your singer to try and sell it. If she bought it used then hopefully she can get most her money back. Some idiot somewhere will buy it. If your band wants to play out then you need a decent PA otherwise you will soon find your band unable to get work because you sound like crap.