Powered speakers in the same chain as unpowered?

Depth_Charge · #1 12-08-2010, 07:37 AM

Im looking for some subs to complement my Yamaha EMX 312 and BR 15's, and a guy from an unnamed store told me that powered subs would work fine in the same chain as the BR 15's (unpowered), and that I would still be able to daisy chain monitors off the monitor send. He also recommended powered monitors.

Does that sound OK to you guys it sounded a bit off to me?

Ric5 · #2 12-08-2010, 07:41 AM

I thought powered speakers should be run off of a line out signal and not a speaker out signal.

The beauty of powered speakers is you don't have to worry about ohms and you can daisy chain a lot of speakers together.

DRafalske · #3 12-08-2010, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric5

I thought powered speakers should be run off of a line out signal and not a speaker out signal.

My thought as well. I don't think a simple daisy chain will work.

Ric5 · #4 12-08-2010, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRafalske

My thought as well. I don't think a simple daisy chain will work.

You can run a line out from your mixer into one powered speaker and then run a line out into a second powered speaker creating a daisy chain. Functionally there may be a limit to the number you can chain together. Also this is not the best way to set up a pa system, but it can be a cheaper way to get a functioning pa together.

Depth_Charge · #5 12-08-2010, 08:12 AM

Thanks guys. I called the store looking for suitable unpowered subs (and monitors) and the guy told me it would be too underpowered for a full band, which is how we got onto the powered solution!

He also said I would need an EQ and a crossover to split the signals between high/mids (BR15's) and lows (subs), despite me telling him the mixer had built in EQ...

DRafalske · #6 12-08-2010, 08:16 AM

True. I guess I'm a little confused by the OP's post.
Assuming a line level input to the first powered sub, then yes you can daisy another one off of that. Most powered speakers have an input and an output.
But...
If he's planning to get his signal for the powered subs off the unpowered ones (ie, sending them a speaker level input), then no, that will not work.

Smokin' Toaster · #7 12-08-2010, 08:34 AM

I would suspect that dumping several hunderd watts of speaker output (intended for an unpowered speaker) into an input of a powered speaker (that is expecting milliwatts) would probably cause damage to the powered speakers inputs. Unless of course the manufacturer anticipated this and made them "idiot-proof" (no offense intended, I myself have played the role of the idiot more than once. Not necessairly with powered/unpowered speakers, but in hooking things up incorrectly.)

MNAirHead · #8 12-08-2010, 09:45 AM

tooo many variables to trust your replies.

some will.. some wont.. the reality is you're not describing cheap gear.

A crossover, compressor and EQ would help you.

Medford Bassman · #9 12-08-2010, 09:56 AM

powered speakers deal only with line signal ONLY. Do not feed it a powered/speaker signal. You will regret it. you won't be able to daisy chain powered and unpowered monitors.

Ben Clarke · #10 12-09-2010, 10:55 AM

All but one Yorkville powered subs can be switched to speaker level. They try to make stuff musician-proof. Probably tough to find in Australia, though.

uhdinator · #11 12-09-2010, 06:01 PM

IF you had a regular Mixer and Power amp set up you could do it easier.

There is a Line out and monitor out that can be used to send to powered Speakers.
Line out jacks are tip sleeve which means powered speaker woul have to have 1/4 inputs.

SOME powered mixers will bypass the power section when a line out has something plugged into it. This means your BR15's would not work. TO test it just plug a guitar cable into it and see if the BR15s still work. If so you are in biziness.

Powered Subs have a crossover in them so all they will output is the low usually around 120 hz down to 40hz. You will have to adjust balance of low and high buy using volume on subs. http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/...ered_Subwoofer

RTFM=read the freakin manual

**nutdog** · #12 12-09-2010, 06:21 PM

The powered sub could be run from the main outs on the front of the emx. Many powered subs have a built in crossover. I had a yamaha emx 68s powered mixer and ran a mackie powered sub in this way.

Powered monitors could be run from the monitor out on the front and daisy chained together. Not sure how many but I regularly run 4 powered monitors from one monitor send.

Do not use the speaker outs in the back for the powered sub or monitor.

The EMX 312 has two 300 watt amps. You could run two 8ohm non-powered speakers off each. This could be 4 front of house or 2 FOH and 2 monitors. This could be in addition to any powered speakers run from the front outputs (mains, monitors or subs).

I would think you could run a band with this system if you are indoors in a small to medium setting. The 68s had 400 watts/ch but I never had to really crank it for small clubs.. Unless you are just extremely loud. And if you mic the kick I would definitely want a sub.

Munjibunga · #13 12-14-2010, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medford Bassman

powered speakers deal only with line signal ONLY. Do not feed it a powered/speaker signal. You will regret it. you won't be able to daisy chain powered and unpowered monitors.

I don't think the guy at the store was talking about running the output of the power amp to the powered speakers. That would indeed be bad karma.

I would run your BR15s full-range off the main speaker outputs on the back panel of the EMX 312. Then I'd take the signal for the powered subs out of the main output jacks on the front of the amp. These are line-level outputs. You'll need to run that signal to a crossover or filter so you can take the upper frequencies off the signal. You'd probably want to set the low-pass filter to cut off at about 90 to 100 hz. Take the signal from the crossover to your powered subs, and there you go.

Ooops. That's in case you didn't read nutdog in the previous post.

Depth_Charge · #14 01-03-2011, 09:28 PM

Thanks again for the replies. So far the PA is working out well, although I've only used it for vocals (and ran my bass through it once just for kicks, its got a sweet tone actually).

Anyway a couple of Wharfedale 15" powered speakers are available at a reasonable price, here they are:

http://wharfedalepro.com/Home/Produc...2/Default.aspx

I'm considering getting them, but I'm not sure if pairing a 15" sub (or pair) to the BR-15 tops will add that much bass presence to what I've already got. Would this give a good punch or would 18" subs be a better bet?

Sorry for dragging up an old thread but I thought it better than starting a new one.

bigfatbass · #15 01-03-2011, 09:57 PM

MANY powered subs will handle a speaker level input, and usually have built-in cross overs. They just use a very high ohm load on the input, rendering them almost transparent to your power source. I run a powered sub off the daisy chain out of a regular unpowered front end speaker damn near 200 nights a year with zero issues. Don't know what the nay-sayers are smokin', but try reading some manuals maybe?

Some subs would be very upset by receiving 400+ watts of juice on their tender little input circuits, but IME the opposite is true. The makers know what you need it to do, and that you often won't have a line level output to send it.

Do a little reading on the models and you'll see this info provided.

walterw · #16 01-03-2011, 10:35 PM

right, plenty of powered speakers are made to "tap" a speaker-level signal with no trouble. (typically, we're talking about a powered sub that "taps" off full-range speaker-level signals going to top boxes.)

thing is, you do not want to mix different kinds of speakers doing the same job. powered and unpowered tops together, or powered and unpowered subs together, can cause phase-induced muddiness and are a Bad Idea.

walker rosewood · #17 01-03-2011, 11:21 PM

I've never understood why music store employees always say unpowered monitors won't suffice for a full band, and then suggest powered speakers. It's actually just the opposite. Just get a normal set up soundboard, power amps, speakers. There are plenty of relatively cheap power amps that will crank. Honestly, when was the last time you saw any professional set up that used powered monitors? They belong in coffee houses with "singer songwriters."

MNAirHead · #18 01-04-2011, 06:20 AM

As a rule no..

Read the manuals for the very specific pieces.

When in doubt, use a box (tons of variety) to pull the power back down to line level.

-----

ALSO...
There are stores that ONLY do pro audio.. you'd be amazed at the difference between places like this and guitar stores.. very few are into over burdening you with gear as you'll evolve and they want you as a long term customer.