Practice space volume/feed back problems

[slap-a-da-bass]

Hey,

I assume this could be a common problem, and I'm looking for some ideas maybe for speaker placement or eq adjustment to help solve feedback problems.

I have a practice space in my basement, 12x18 that's usable for music, but the room is 12x 28, but the part of it is a TV area. When we practice I would like to practice with guitars & bass at quieter levels, vocals louder so everyong can hear themselves sing. Problem is the drums are just too loud, then the guitar players turn up. Guess what? you can't hear yourself sing then, so you turn up the vocals, and we start to get feed back. I feel like it's really loud, my ears are ringing when we're done with practice, but the drummer & one of the guitar players aren't bothered by the volume. I personally have started to use ear plugs for practice. The lead singer really has a problem with pitch when she can't hear herself.

I'm looking for some ideas on speaker placement. I've already did the room ring out, but I could work with it a little more. I've even considered using a headphone amp with headphones or earbuds for everyone.

Here's a vid to give you an idea of what the space & our set up looks like. Our drummer is our main backup singer, but with the speaker 4' from his mic, it's unusable at louder volumes.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/vid...62520090432999

Ideas?

[megadan]

Dampen the drums. I love loud drums, but I don't play in vocal bands. Common suggestions:
-e-drums
-mutes/pads
-plexiglass shield
-hotrods

All good ways to reduce the drum volume rather than chasing feedback issues.

[derrico1]

1. Best solution is a drummer who can play with feel and tone at appropriate volumes, all the way down to a whisper. Yes, it can be done, and it can be done by loud drummers. One of the hardest hitting drummers I've ever played with could also keep killer feel and tone down to a live fade-out.

2. Otherwise, e-drums, hot rods, or muffling to chill out the drummer's volume--but those are poor second alternatives compared to a musical drummer with ears and touch enough enough to blend into the mix. With a quality drummer, vocal level rather than drums ought to dictate the band's overall volume.

3. Headphone amp for those that want to hear the vocals. Closed ear headphones might also help slow your time to hearing loss that you're courting w/ excessive rehearsal volumes.

4. Guitarist killing the rest of you w/ volume b/c he can't hear himself? Raise his amp by his ears, angled away from the rest of you. Mic it to blend a little into the headphone mix.

[Ibanez Bassist]

This is one of the main reasons why I sold my Pearl kit and got a Roland Electronic kit.. Its incredible now how much of a difference there is when we practice to have a controlled volume situation and no mic problems im just tied right into the interface for audio and midi recording's.. best move I ever made..

[F-Clef-Jef]

I see that the PA speakers are behind the singer, with her mic pointed right at them. That's a super effective way to create feedback! She should be facing them, with the mic pointed away from them.

Maybe tame the drums by building a drum-booth-type-thing, then you could have a drummer in a box! Just don't forget to let him back out after practice is done.

[delta7fred]

We rehearse in my front room, ok it can get a little bit loud, but not often. The drummer has a Ludwig Power kit which is seriously loud, but he usually keeps it under control. The guitarist is normally a bit too quiet if anything, we have to tell him to turn up sometimes. (Now don't you wish you had one like that!)

We set up as we would on stage except that the PA speakers face backward, towards us, so we have pretty good monitoring.

The secret is to not play at 11 all the time, there is just no need.

When rehearsing you all need to be able to hear each other. If all you can hear is yourself then you are practising, not rehearsing.

If all you can hear is someone else then you are wasting your time and might as well be getting in some solo practise.

If you need to wear earplugs then one or all of you is too loud. The older you get the more you realise you don't need to rehearse at full volume.

Just my 2 penneth, cents, pfennigs, whatever.

[OtterOnBass]

A number of things to try, just suggestions from someone who's been lurking sound forums:

*four-foot high piece of plywood in front of the drummer to limit direct soundwaves to your ears and make the drummer feel loud
*turning the drummer so his crashes are aimed away from the others. (i.e. he looks at you on his left side)
*put your guitar amps up on stands
*put everything in the PA and have one person in charge of the PA levels
(or) *put your speakers on the floor like monitors, aimed up at the back of the mics for increased volume.

My band's practice volume has been huge, so I wear earplugs, stand next to the hi-hat near my amp. The guitarist just got a 1x12 to replace his 4x12, and we switched drummers, plus we're putting the heavy load on the PA now, so volume is coming way down.

P.S. You weren't kidding about the naming of the video. Does anyone enjoy playing rock and roll? That song needs some punch and dynamics to the main riff, it's a little rushed. bAWMP...bAWM-BAWW...bAWMP...bAWM-BAWW - not BAWM-BAWM-BAWM, BAWM-BAWM-BAWM. Hope you don't mind the free advise.

[Never_grew_up]

1 - Do something to pad the wall behind the drummer - egg cartons, carpet, old comforter, Something.
1a - Baffle in front of the drummer - the pexi's are cool and are the least restrictive (you still see him,he still sees you).

2 - Switch him to an electronic kit, at least for rehearsal (Good luck with that).
2a - If you can't get him on an electronic kit, try to get him to switch to Zildian pitch black cymbals. The black coating deadens them a little (GREAT for recording!!!!). We have them on our rehearsal kit and they're well worth the $.
3 - Definitely move the PA speakers forward so you're not singing in front of the PA.

[slap-a-da-bass]

Thanks for the responses.

Here's what I've done so far, I've arranged the room so the mains are out in front of us, but pointing toward us, like a monitor wedge on a stand. the drummer has his mic with a monitor right by his kit, in back of his mic. I placed a sub right by the guitar player that likes it loud, he will put his amp on top of the sub, it will be around chest height and about 4' from his head, he should be able to hear himself. I'll be ringing out the system in the next couple of days, but I expect to have more control on the volume.

In the next month or two, I also plan on building some broadband traps, as the room has a lot of echo, and is strong on the low-mid freq's.

Our drummer does have and elec kit, but he keeps that in his apartment, so he can practice with headphones.

[hbarcat]

Another good way to create feedback is to have the guitar and bass amps set up as on the perimeter of a circle, facing inward.


Solve this by lining all the amps on the same wall facing the same direction and have the vocal monitors on the opposite wall facing you.

[uhdinator]

1. mic placement
2. speaker placement
3. room dimensions/characteristics
4. volume level

if number 4 is the problem, 1-3 are errelevent

[Winnb]

Your drummer is way too loud. All of that other stuff you did to help your problem is great, but the drummer is a big problem. Turn his drums away from everyone off to the side. Those cymbals annihilate the vocals, especially in a small room. They also cut into the guitar frequencies which is why so many guitar players turn up when the drums are loud. Which makes the drummer play louder. Which makes the guitar player turn up... and around and around we go.

[uhdinator]

1. set up your practice space like you would on a stage (thats how you will hear yourself when playing gigs) that way at every gig you can hear each other like you are use to at practice. Experiment with instr amp placement so you can all hear each others amps equally (use amp stands if poss so your amp is closer to your ears instead of the floor. You don't have ears on your ankles. Once you get it how you like try to setup this way for shows. LESS volume needed.

2. get the drummer out from the wall a bit and put something on the wall to suck up some reflections (i stapled a 5x8 rugs from home depot to the walls.

3. If you have monitor wedges and thats what you use for shows, use them for practice.....thats all your gonna hear when doing a show.

4. if using pa cabs put them at other end of room not in corners. have your "practice stage" facing PA cabs so the back of your mics is facing the PA.. I try not rely on this as its not how i'm gonna hear things playing live.

5. if using banana style speaker cable connectors on PA amp,
flip them over (red to black vice red to red) on binding posts of amp. This puts the speakers out of phase with the mics'
I only do this with monitors when doing a live show.

[nurnay]

Originally Posted by uhdinator

1. mic placement
2. speaker placement
3. room dimensions/characteristics
4. volume level

if number 4 is the problem, 1-3 are errelevent

Yep! Our band had horrible feedback issues, we'd spend a half hour or more every time we set up trying to work around it. Then everyone turned down a bit and the feedback has disappeared. And now my ears aren't ringing afterwards!

Tell the drummer to soften his playing. If he's loud, the bass has to be loud, the guitars, and down the line.

Turning down was the best thing we've done, and beyond the feedback issue, we sound much crisper, less muddy. It's done wonders for our overall tone.

[slap-a-da-bass]

We'll...Here's a shocker! We lost a guitar player because we told him he was too loud. It pissed him off, and after the next practice, he quit. He says he can rock as loud as he wants with his other band.

[nurnay]

Originally Posted by slap-a-da-bass

We'll...Here's a shocker! We lost a guitar player because we told him he was too loud. It pissed him off, and after the next practice, he quit. He says he can rock as loud as he wants with his other band.

How mature. Sounds like you're better off without him.

[Adam Bomb]

Originally Posted by slap-a-da-bass

We'll...Here's a shocker! We lost a guitar player because we told him he was too loud. It pissed him off, and after the next practice, he quit. He says he can rock as loud as he wants with his other band.

Oops. Maybe a mod should move this thread to Band Mgmt? But, seriously, sorry you guys are having so many technical-type difficulties. The potential is there. Awesome band name.

--Bomb

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Never_grew_up

1 - Do something to pad the wall behind the drummer - egg cartons, carpet, old comforter, Something.
1a - Baffle in front of the drummer - the pexi's are cool and are the least restrictive (you still see him,he still sees you).

We used sound board. Sold in 4x8 sheets, usually a big box hardware store will carry it and cut it as well.

We cut a couple of sheets in half and if installed around, behind and hang a piece above the drummer, you'll be amazed at how much dampening it can do. We wired the sheets together (like hinges) so it's positioning around the drummer is a bit flexible. Also cut a hole for the kick drum. The more handy you are the better results you'll get.

You can add carpet squares to the back side for even more dampening or double up on the sound board.

Be sure the sound board goes up high enough to block the cymbals.

[mboogiemanusa]

A couple things I recommend. Never practice in a circle .....set up and practice as if you are on stage all facing the same direction and everyone in their correct position on stage. The reason for that is you get used to the eye contact when practicing in a circle and when you then do a show - the eye contact is now different and members will miss some of the visual queues. The band should also face the PA mains instead of having the PA behind the mics. Low ceiling is going to cause feedback problems. Put the bass amp behind the drummer and get the guitar amps off the ground on tables or stands behind the band. I built a practice room out of my 2 car garage which was 24' x 24'. I was able to add foam panels to the ceiling which you may not be able to do in your situation but may be able to build some temporary sound proofing panels. You might want to build a 3 piece plexiglass drum shield to surround the drums like the lounge bands do at casinos to drop the volume.