Proper way to connect a keyboard to a mixer through a snake

dancrocker · #1 12-01-2010, 04:33 PM

I have a snake where all the feeds are XLR. I want to connect a keyboard with stereo 1/4" output to a stereo channel on the mixer. The stereo channel uses two 1/4" connections. When I connect the keyboard to the mixer without the snake, I simply use two 1/4" instrument cables. This seems to work fine because the distance is relatively short.

With the snake involved, it sounds like I would need two DI boxes to convert from 1/4" to XLR to connect to the snake, then two XLR to 1/4" transformers to convert back to XLR for connection to the mixer. Am I over complicating this? It seems like there ought to be an easier way.

Dan

relwof · #2 12-01-2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancrocker

With the snake involved, it sounds like I would need two DI boxes to convert from 1/4" to XLR to connect to the snake

If you want stereo, yes - assuming your keyboard doesn't have balanced outputs (which would typically be XLR or 1/4" TRS).

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancrocker

, then two XLR to 1/4" transformers to convert back to XLR for connection to the mixer.

??? no, you typically use a DI box on the instrument side of the snake, then on the other side you just connect the XLR straight to the mixer. Assuming you have XLR plugs on the fanout/mixer end of your snake, and XLR inputs on your mixer...

bongomania · #3 12-01-2010, 04:54 PM

^^^ Yep. Stereo = two channels, so if you really need stereo effects from the keyboard, then you need two channels of the snake, and that means two DI boxes (or one 2-channel DI box). And the other end of the snake is almost always XLR's, which go straight into the XLR inputs of the desk.

dancrocker · #4 12-01-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

^^^ Yep. Stereo = two channels, so if you really need stereo effects from the keyboard, then you need two channels of the snake, and that means two DI boxes (or one 2-channel DI box). And the other end of the snake is almost always XLR's, which go straight into the XLR inputs of the desk.

Well, the problem is that the stereo channels of the mixer only have 1/4" inputs. Obviously, I could use two of the XLR input channels but the mixer only has 12 of these and we're using them all for vocal and instrument mics. I really can't afford to use any of these for the keyboard, let alone two. I admit that I could blow off the stereo connection and do mono but I would still need to use the stereo channel.

So, it does sound like I would need an XLR to 1/4" transformer to connect the XLR output of the snake to the 1/4" input of the mixer's stereo channel.

greenboy · #5 12-01-2010, 06:25 PM

Common keyboard player remedy for so damned much: submixer. A lot of specialized mixers have appeared over the years ideal for this. Some are very small and fairly cheap with several sets of stereo-ganged inputs, others are rackable with more yet. Make sure you get one with balanced outputs.

dancrocker · #6 12-01-2010, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenboy

Common keyboard player remedy for so damned much: submixer. A lot of specialized mixers have appeared over the years ideal for this. Some are very small and fairly cheap with several sets of stereo-ganged inputs, others are rackable with more yet. Make sure you get one with balanced outputs.

I'm afraid I'm not quite see how a submixer like this would help me. I guess if I had more than one stereo device to connect and I had a submixer with several stereo inputs and two XLR balanced outputs, this would allow me to connect these devices to the main board by using only two channels. But, if I only have one keyboard, it still sounds like I need the DI boxes and transformers to go back and forth between XLR and 1/4". Did I miss your point?

bongomania · #7 12-01-2010, 06:39 PM

How far (in feet) is it from the keyboard to the mixer?

dancrocker · #8 12-01-2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

How far (in feet) is it from the keyboard to the mixer?

Right now, it's only about 12 ft or so. I'm using 18 ft 1/4" cables direct to the mixer. However, I'm considering moving things around such that all of the connections to the mixer go through the snake. Once I do this, it seems like I should (need to) convert to XLR and plug this into the stage box. Some snakes do have 1/4" returns that, from a connector point of view, would work (basically sending a signal from keyboard to mixer instead of a return in the other direction). However, this doesn't sound like a good idea to me due to the length of the cable (the snake cable length plus the cable from the keyboard to the snake). Even if the snake cable is only 25 ft, it seems like this is still a long way for a 1/4" connection.

bongomania · #9 12-01-2010, 07:09 PM

How about a wireless system for the keyboard?

dancrocker · #10 12-01-2010, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

How about a wireless system for the keyboard?

While this sounds high-tech and cool, I really don't need this much flexibility in location. This is for a church band so the budget is limited.

Jerry Ziarko · #11 12-01-2010, 10:05 PM

Limited budget- start here - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SDirectPlus
then get 2 of these http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CDIQ8wIwAQ#
Less than $50 problem solved. By the way, the stereo Samson DI works just fine for keys.

dancrocker · #12 12-01-2010, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Ziarko

Limited budget- start here - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SDirectPlus
then get 2 of these http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CDIQ8wIwAQ#
Less than $50 problem solved. By the way, the stereo Samson DI works just fine for keys.

Both of these look very useful. Thanks.

uhdinator · #13 12-02-2010, 06:09 AM

1. is the PA system stereo? if not no point in running the keys in stereo.
2. Direct box mono/or stereo 2 channel to snake box (1/4 cables into direct box, XLR out of direct box to Snake Box.)
3. Does the mixer have Balanced 1/4 inputs on its stereo channels? if inputs are balanced you use an XLR female to TRS 1/4 adapter or get a short XLR to TRS cable(s) and attach that to the mixer end of the snake channel. (not a transformer).

It amazes me that so many Churches have PA systems but no sound guy that should know all this stuff.

relwof · #14 12-02-2010, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Ziarko

Limited budget- start here - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SDirectPlus
then get 2 of these http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CDIQ8wIwAQ#
Less than $50 problem solved. By the way, the stereo Samson DI works just fine for keys.

Although I haven't used that particular gadget, I've been pretty happy with Samson gear in general. But there are still a few possible gotchas trying to use the "stereo" channels on your board, depending on how they're designed (what model is it?)

If the inputs are balanced (in which case each "stereo" channel would typically have two 1/4" TRS (Tip Ring Sleeve - 3 conductor plug, like headphones) jacks marked as inputs - NOT insert - and probably marked something like "balanced/unbalanced" as well) then you would want a female XLR to male TRS 1/4" on the mixer side - the adapter mentioned above doesn't appear to be TRS. If they are not balanced, I'm not sure whether just a DI on the keyboard side will help much.

And even if they are balanced inputs, no XLR jacks on those channels makes it unlikely they provide phantom power. You could go through a lot of 9V batteries if you use an active DI like that Samson. NiMH rechargable 9Vs might work, but some devices don't like lower voltage (a fully charged NiMH 9V usually puts out only 7.2V).

relwof · #15 12-02-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uhdinator

1. is the PA system stereo? if not no point in running the keys in stereo.

+100

Quote:

Originally Posted by uhdinator

It amazes me that so many Churches have PA systems but no sound guy that should know all this stuff.

We have sound guys, but they're volunteers who started with zero experience. Unless a church can afford to pay for "real" sound guys, that's typically what they end up with. It's much easier to find moderately experienced amateur musicians than sound guys. It's hard to develop live mix experience at home by yourself.

And that's the main reason I went wireless. I usually spend part of our rehearsals back at the board, teaching them a bit more each time. Which is kinda scary, since I'm not exactly a live sound guru myself (but at least I know enough to know where what I don't know might be dangerous). Of course, this means I have nobody to blame but myself if the bass doesn't sit well in the mix, since they pretty much let me set the mix however I want......

dancrocker · #16 12-02-2010, 02:58 PM

Thanks for the all the helpful responses. I believe I have grasped all the issues and tradeoffs. BTW, +100000 on the stereo/mono comment. It turns out that our PA is, in fact, mono and I won't need to connect the keyboard with stereo. I used this as an example in case there were a more compact way to connect a stereo instrument other than a separate chain of components/converters for each channel.
Regarding the comment on the lack of sound guys for churches, relwof is right on target. I am a "moderately experienced musician" who was drafted to do sound. I am still learning.

uhdinator · #17 12-03-2010, 12:26 AM

Not picking on you...........just blows my mind how much churches pay for gear with no idea how to run it. I used to sell music gear and try to help by stopping in at churches and help them get things solved, especially since they spent a lot of money and I did tech support on my time and my dime.

It frustrated me as one Pastor was upset with the gear as he was having hum and noise issues......stopped at his church and found........unshielded speaker cables used as line level cables and he complained all the gear was crap..........I told him there was wiring issues. Turns out he came back to me and apologized after having an electrician check things out.........it was grounding issues and the electrician fixed it.

I have had hum issues with most electronic Keyboards that a direct box ground lift would not fix. LCD screens may be the cause of it. The only thing that worked and worked well for me was a box made by EBTECH called a line level shifter.
It accepts a 1/4 instrument cable and can boost or cut the signal as well as balance the signal with 1/4 TRS out. (TRS to XLR male cable needed to snake box.) I carry one in my tool box now.

http://www.ebtechaudio.com/llsdes.html

TRS adapter (not a transformer) http://accessories.musiciansfriend.c...ter?sku=335209

dancrocker · #18 12-03-2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uhdinator

Not picking on you...........just blows my mind how much churches pay for gear with no idea how to run it. I used to sell music gear and try to help by stopping in at churches and help them get things solved, especially since they spent a lot of money and I did tech support on my time and my dime.

It frustrated me as one Pastor was upset with the gear as he was having hum and noise issues......stopped at his church and found........unshielded speaker cables used as line level cables and and he complained all the gear was crap..........I told him there was wiring issues.

Turns out he came back to me and apologized after having an electrician check things out.........it was grounding issues and the electrician fixed it.

Don't worry, I didn't take offense

uhdinator · #19 12-03-2010, 12:54 AM

Oh the EBTECH line level shifter is not a Direct box so it can't send to a stage amp and the snake also like a DI box. The keys player uses wireless in ears monitors. BUT you could send right output of Keys to stage amp and Left output to the Line level box (I tell the keys gal to keep volume on the keys at about half Volume so there is room for slight adjustments as the EBTECH boosts the signal from -10db to +4 db.