RANT (discussion) - Monitor Mixes with Self-Run Sound On Stage

MNAirHead · #1 09-11-2011, 02:56 PM

I saw a band last night...

GREAT gear... GREAT sound check...

6 monitor mixes... the primary guy should have had the EXACT same mix as the mains in IEM...

Instead they had horrid mains...

He checked through wireless... the issue is after the band settled in, the levels changed and the guy was clueless.

=-----

How many of you (that run stage sound) run the sound guy's monitor EXACTLY the same as the mains?

I see this issue SSSSOOOO often,.

Tim

Stinsok · #2 09-11-2011, 03:00 PM

We only run vocals in the monitors.

lowfreq33 · #3 09-11-2011, 03:35 PM

The problem is that even if you send the same mix to the monitor it isn't going to sound the same since it's coming out of a different speaker from a different spot in the room. Monitors will also have various frequencies cut to eliminate feedback. Running stage sound can be kind of tough. I just try to find excuses to go out front periodically (I'm wireless). You can work it into the show, like jumping down to dance with the crowd a bit. I also have a singer whose ears I trust that will do the same, and she'll let me know if something is overbearing or getting lost.

walterw · #4 09-11-2011, 07:18 PM

there's no way i'm gonna run a typical bar-band kick drum + vocal "stage volume plus" FOH mix into my monitor!

we just have to be disciplined enough to not change our levels as the night wears on, and i need to check things out front periodically. if the band's professional, it's not a problem.

stingraysvt · #5 09-11-2011, 07:24 PM

I had a wireless so I could make my "trips" to the dance floor to check the FOH, my monitors.... IEM's: Bass and my vocals Wedges: my Vocals

My mix would suck as FOH mix... But that's what I need to hear to make sure what I'm doing is right...

cableguy · #6 09-11-2011, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walterw

there's no way i'm gonna run a typical bar-band kick drum + vocal "stage volume plus" FOH mix into my monitor!

we just have to be disciplined enough to not change our levels as the night wears on, and i need to check things out front periodically. if the band's professional, it's not a problem.

+1 I just got out of a band than ran sound from the stage. guitarist & keyboardist never failed to ramp up their volume as the night went on. Sound always suffered as the night went on. Discussed this with the band, nothing changed, moved on.

seanm · #7 09-11-2011, 07:56 PM

When we bring a PA, I run sound from the stage, and I don't have a monitor.

I go out front a few times during the first set, but less in later sets unless we have having issues.

Medford Bassman · #8 09-11-2011, 08:14 PM

I run sound from the stage. You do what ya gotta do. However, I'm the only one with an amp onstage (bass monitor) Keys and guitar come straight into the board from DIs. Plus, they use IEM.

Drummer is usually my only problem. I try to set his levels at the beginning of the night by asking him to beat on them as loud as he can. However, as the night goes on and he gets more into the show, he hits them harder.

I do spend an awful lot of time int the crowd (wireless) to make adjustments throughout the night.

Is it the best way to do it? No but it does work pretty well for us due to not much in the way of stage sound.

We did a show last month with a professional sound crew. Afterwards I was speaking to the sound guy and told him how I run things. He says to me, "so, your drummer pretty hard to mix isn't he?"

LOL. cheered me right up

**Ryan L.** · #9 09-12-2011, 06:31 AM

We run sound from stage, but our FOH sound has nothing in common with our monitor mixes.

seanm · #10 09-12-2011, 10:47 AM

Add to the fact that monitors quite often sound completely different from the mains. Our mains are a little bass heavy and the monitors are very treble heavy. I EQ the two very different. So what you hear out the monitors is not what you are hearing out the mains anyway.

KingRazor · #11 09-12-2011, 11:09 AM

I would never try to mix for the mains from the stage. That sounds like a nightmare.

But then, I'm not in a situation where I'm forced to do that.

seanm · #12 09-12-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingRazor

I would never try to mix for the mains from the stage. That sounds like a nightmare.

But then, I'm not in a situation where I'm forced to do that.

It's not a nightmare.... but it is definitely not optimal. You have to know the songs well enough that you can play them without any concentration at all. When I am doing the initial mix (or fixing problems), I am concentrating on the mix 95% and my playing 5% (if that).

Really, unless there are real problems, you don't have to spend that much time mixing in a bar gig. I sometimes wish I had a better mixer, but I think the simple powered mixer forces you to do a good enough job rather than endlessly fiddling.

But when we play a gig where there is a PA and a soundman you really really appreciate it

MNAirHead · #13 09-12-2011, 02:42 PM

So those of you running from stage are just guessing?

I feel blessed to have hired a tenured pro to dial us in then lock it down.

Medford Bassman · #14 09-12-2011, 03:25 PM

well, i suppose we do the best we can

Haven't heard alot of complaints though.

seanm · #15 09-12-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

So those of you running from stage are just guessing?

I feel blessed to have hired a tenured pro to dial us in then lock it down.

Guessing in what way? We have to trust our ears just like anybody else. I guess I don't understand the question

And yes, you are blessed to have a real soundman. We just can't justify that on small bar gigs.

ggunn · #16 09-12-2011, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanm

Guessing in what way? We have to trust our ears just like anybody else. I guess I don't understand the question

But we are. The mix onstage and the mix out front are two different animals, and the ways in which they are different change with the venue. Through experience we can sometimes guess pretty well what it's like out front, but it's not like we can really know unless we go out there and listen.

seanm · #17 09-12-2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggunn

But we are. The mix onstage and the mix out front are two different animals, and the ways in which they are different change with the venue. Through experience we can sometimes guess pretty well what it's like out front, but it's not like we can really know unless we go out there and listen.

I have a wireless for that. I always go out into the audience to check the sound.

Bufalo · #18 09-12-2011, 07:08 PM

My wife has been to enough gigs that she can squint and frown or smile and thumbs-up to me whether or not the main mix of vocals and guitar (sometimes a snare) is appropriate. I mix monitors to provide the best stage sound.

MNAirHead · #19 09-12-2011, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanm

Guessing in what way? We have to trust our ears just like anybody else. I guess I don't understand the question

And yes, you are blessed to have a real soundman. We just can't justify that on small bar gigs.

When self-running sound...

I went on a long quest of how to do it and have it right.

One of the better known sound guys in our region basically designed the entire setup.... he then commented, IEM (exactly like the mains) for the guy who has the keys to the controls.

He commented to set the levels from a wireless mid room.. then use the mains as a personal monitor mix.

---

Maybe it's a rhetorical question..

"is there a better way to get a real on going idea of what's happening in front than to have the primary sound guy (on stage) have the same mix as what's going on in the mains?"

seanm · #20 09-12-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

When self-running sound...

I went on a long quest of how to do it and have it right.

One of the better known sound guys in our region basically designed the entire setup.... he then commented, IEM (exactly like the mains) for the guy who has the keys to the controls.

He commented to set the levels from a wireless mid room.. then use the mains as a personal monitor mix.

---

Maybe it's a rhetorical question..

"is there a better way to get a real on going idea of what's happening in front than to have the primary sound guy (on stage) have the same mix as what's going on in the mains?"

For bar gigs I think IEMs are overkill. Let's face it, the bars are not paying for that level.

I believe to successfully mix from the stage you need two things:

You need the mobility to move out into the audience. For a bar this almost always means wireless since you will get a long cord tied up.
You have to listen to the whole band, not just yourself.

I actually don't want a monitor in front of me. I don't need the extra volume, and it just muddies things up.

I go out into the crowd. I setup the mix and get a baseline established. Now I go back on stage and really listen to the mix (I tend to make the most mistakes playing at this time

). Listen to the whole band.

Now you just have to listen to hear if things change. You don't need to actually hear the exact FOH because you have a baseline defined. It isn't perfect, but you also aren't just guessing either. This can't catch all problems, but will catch the majority, which is all you can hope for.

All this is, of course, IMHO. It seems to work for me. But I am open to suggestions. None of this is engraved in stone and I am no expert.