Replicating EQ curves

[ChrisPbass]

I wasn't sure if this should be posted in recording or live sound. Seems applicable to either forum.

I would like to replicate the EQ curve of one bass with another bass. Basically I want to make bass A sound similar to bass B. Bass A has a distinctive mid-range hump that I want to move a bit. I don't have the ears to do this so I'm going to use the following tools.
This is for live sound. I'm not worried about the inconsistencies of rooms etc...i just want them to look the same on a computer/recording software.

EQ shaping tools:
Eden 400 (parametric EQ)
Bart 3 band preamp

Fast track pro interface w/
Abelton live lite

thanks for your help!

[JimmyM]

well that all depends on what basses they are, doesn't it? like you could probably make a precision and jazz sound similar by turning off the jazz's bridge pickup, while a jazz and a beatle bass will be highly unlikely to sound similar no matter what you do. but without that missing info, all we can tell you is to turn knobs until desired result is achieved.

[ChrisPbass]

I don't think just turning knobs is my only option. I ***imagine*** there is a piece of software/plugin that tells you exactly what each bass is doing on the EQ spectrum. I plug both basses into an a/b box, bass A which is the desired tone goes straight in to the interface/software and bass B goes through the Eden into interface/software. play bass A, look at EQ in software, switch to B, play and modify EQ, repeat.
It won't be exact but the difference between bass A and B are fairly huge.
I don't think it matters but bass A is a P bass and bass B is a Modulus Quantum 5 fretless.
***If*** I had the ears and experience w/EQ I would just use my ears but i've tried that and have been unsuccessful which is why i'm asking for some sort of plugin that will show exactly what is going on EQ-wise in Abelton Lite.

[testing1two]

There's more to an instrument's timbre than just EQ, so don't expect miracles. However, that said you can learn a great deal about each bass by doing some simple listening tests (in other words use your ears not a plug-in).

Plug bass A into your Eden. Set all EQ flat. Take the low-mid band and boost the gain about half way above zero (+7-8). Play the bass and slowly sweep the frequency knob from it's lowest setting to it's highest setting. Listen for the spot(s) where the sound gets noticeably louder, softer, pleasing or offensive. This will tell you about the peaks/dips in the instrument's frequency response as it relates to the amp. When you find something particularly noticeable try adjusting the gain knob to cut that frequency instead of boosting it.

Repeat the process for each of the three bands of mid-EQ and you should have an understanding of the dominant frequencies in Bass A. Then adjust the bass and treble controls up and down, listening to how it affects that particular instrument. If you apply this method to the Bass B you can use the information to cut the most offensive frequencies and/or boost something that sounds like it's lacking.

HINT: whenever you do these types of evaluations, try to put some distance between your ears and the speaker cabinet, 6 to 10 feet if possible.

[walterw]

EQ is only affecting one "dimension". attack "envelope" is the other, and an EQ won't do anything to that.

one instrument might have a bright attack and a dark sustain, while another might have a softer initial transient but more cutting upper mids in the rest of the note.

EQ won't turn one instrument into another.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by ChrisPbass

I don't think just turning knobs is my only option. I ***imagine*** there is a piece of software/plugin that tells you exactly what each bass is doing on the EQ spectrum. I plug both basses into an a/b box, bass A which is the desired tone goes straight in to the interface/software and bass B goes through the Eden into interface/software. play bass A, look at EQ in software, switch to B, play and modify EQ, repeat.
It won't be exact but the difference between bass A and B are fairly huge.
I don't think it matters but bass A is a P bass and bass B is a Modulus Quantum 5 fretless.

you're kidding, right? of course it matters! i never heard two basses that sound so different. eq is only one aspect out of several, as walter said.

***If*** I had the ears and experience w/EQ I would just use my ears but i've tried that and have been unsuccessful which is why i'm asking for some sort of plugin that will show exactly what is going on EQ-wise in Abelton Lite.

and you're still not going to get any closer to matching the tones of those two basses other than a reasonable facsimile. and i say "why bother?" vive le difference!

[steveksux]

If you really want to make bass B sound just like bass A, one thing you might try is.... playing bass A.

Randy

[ChrisPbass]

steveksux - one bass is fretless one is fretted.

Yes EQ is only one dimension but I am trying to reproduce certain freqs of the P ONTO the Mod so that is the dimension I'm shooting for. What else can I do to get this particular freq happening on the Mod other than EQ it? No it's not going turn A into B.

Jimmy, when I say it doesn't matter I mean it doesn't really matter if it's a Mod/P, Ritter/J, Bronco/ATK as I am still dealing w/2 different sounding basses and I'm *still* going to attempt this EQ fix regardless of type of bass.

If I had the ears and knowledge of EQ I wouldn't have started this thread. I figure a visual representation of EQ curves for each bass would help me in my quest.

The reason I'm doing it is because I *love* the fretless qualities of the Mod but the P bass sounds SO good. Plug and play boom boom boom there is the sound. The Mod takes EQ tweaking as it is a MID Monster. I have been tweaking for months but i'm not getting it where I want it to be, hence this thread.

I should probably just rip the frets out of the P or change the neck but...that's not going to happen for a while.

[Matthijs]

One of your problems is you're visually trying to copy the freq curve that only represents the curve for one note on one particular position on the neck. You can sum all notes into one curve, but it will not help you much as you'll probably never play the all at once. The caracter is in every single note.
The EQ curve will only show some general tendencies in frequency response, it won't tell you anything about the volume relations between the different harmonics in relation to pickup placement and phasing between the two pu's.

So EQ will probably only get you a limited result around a few notes. If it would work we all would have modelling pre's in our basses with a p, a j, a mm and a rick switch. Nevertheless I recommend testing1two's suggestion to get you in the ballpark. It will also help you train your ears.

You might have to try other ways to get the modulus closer to the P. I'd try low mid heavy strings too: heavier gauges, nickel instead of steel, ground, pressure or flatwounds wounds, etc.
Maybe send a mail to nordstrand too: ask them for a neck soapbar that's closest to a p sound

[JimmyM]

well a lot of us actually have experience and we say that the best you can hope for is to turn off the bridge pickup in the modulus and kinda sorta get close but not really. your dilemma is 100% the reason i went back to playing fenders after a few years playing a boutique custom.

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by ChrisPbass

steveksux - one bass is fretless one is fretted.

Exactly, that's the point, it's a lot more than EQ going on.

Yes EQ is only one dimension but I am trying to reproduce certain freqs of the P ONTO the Mod so that is the dimension I'm shooting for. What else can I do to get this particular freq happening on the Mod other than EQ it? No it's not going turn A into B.

Only way to get the freqs to "match" is to boost the ones that are low, and reduce the ones that are high compared to the target bass you're trying to reproduce. That's EQ. That's all you got. Lets say for the sake of argument that you actually do that. That's not going to do it though.

The problem is they have different harmonics. The "tone" is the result of overtones produced by each note, which varies by pickup placement, where you pluck the strings, how hard you pluck the strings, pickup characteristics.

None of which can be altered by EQ. You can get the other bass to have approximately the same amount of low end, mids, highs. But they'll still have different tone. Cause the same note on each bass has different overtones, different harmonics.

Randy

[ChrisPbass]

"You can get the other bass to have approximately the same amount of low end, mids, highs."

thank you! this is what I am shooting for! All I'm asking for is a plug in so I don't have to do this by EAR!
If I get EQ as close as possible and it doesn't float my boat then at least I know.

I will do the EQ thing mentioned by Testing1two

[walterw]

"by ear" is the only way to do it. "plug-ins" don't work that way.

you won't make one bass sound like the other, but you might at least get it to be the same volume through your rig so you don't have to change settings.

[walterw]

EQ is not even scratching the surface of what makes one bass sound different than another. for that, you'll need one of these.

[Buxtehude]

The Logic program has a plugin called 'match-eq'. I'm sure you can get something similar, but trying to make a Modulus fretless sound like a P bass might be futile.

[lindseyp]

The VB-99 that walterw linked seems like it would do what you want, although that's hardware and you're looking for software. You can use the VB-99 live or for recording and you don't have to permanently mount the pickup system to your bass.

[TimmyP]

Even a fretted P and a frettless P will have differences that cannot be EQd out. That's a benefit or a curse, depending on what you want. When in doubt, ask yourself "What would Palladino do?".

[type C basses]

Not gonna happen. I encourage you to continue in your efforts because you may better understand this stuff through these experiments. If basses could just sound like each other, the market would be a lot less diverse.

[walterw]

here's the reason why EQ is only a small part of what makes one bass sound like another.

[Samsound]

Check out Ableton. It has a built-in SpecAn. You still haven't read the manual or help files, have you?