Running a DAW live?

[DuraMorte]

I'm going to be running sound for my dad's band when they start gigging early next year.
I have a 16-channel recording setup that is reasonably portable.
I want to set it up with a laptop and extra monitor to run an entire live show (in a typical bar) digitally, with no analog outboard gear.
I tested it earlier tonight, running only monitors, and after working out a few minor issues with dropouts and glitches, I got it sounding excellent, with minimal latency.
However, my dad doesn't want to take it out to gigs, because it's "unreliable". His thought is that it will inevitably crash, leaving no sound.
I want to use it, because I can't stand not having a gate, comp, and (good) EQ on every channel. The only gear the band has is an old Peavey 24-channel (18 XLR) board, a 2-channel gate/comp (Alesis 2626), and two 31-band graphic EQ's.
I *could* run just that, and it would be *okay*... but I want it to sound GREAT, and the only way to get a great FOH sound is to have enough outboard gear to fit the needs of the band... Or run the sound digitally, and forget all that expensive outboard.

So, my question to my fellow TB'ers is, have you ever played or seen a show that was done the way I'm talking about?
If so, how were the results?
All opinions welcome!

[stingraysvt]

I see fewer bands doing multi in lieu of just an iPod onstage running a mono/click track

I knew of my brother's old band having muli-studio tracks but it became problematic, they were pre mixed so they got bounced to an iPod with the appropriate click track.

I've seen other bands go multi and wind up with 40 inputs. Not very feasible for most one off gigs...

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by stingraysvt

I see fewer bands doing multi in lieu of just an iPod onstage running a mono/click track
I knew of my brother's old band having muli-studio tracks but it became problematic, they were pre mixed so they got bounced to an iPod with the appropriate click track.
I've seen other bands go multi and wind up with 40 inputs. Not very feasible for most one off gigs...

I'm not sure you understand what I'm talking about.
Everything is being performed live; there is no pre-recorded material.
My plan is to use the DAW for all the channel inputs, using virtual gates, comps, EQ's, reverbs, etc. in lieu of expensive outboard gear.
In effect, I want to use the DAW as the board and effects, eliminating the need for all that expensive rackmount stuff.
Does that make sense?

[fingerbun]

Originally Posted by DuraMorte

I'm going to be running sound for my dad's band when they start gigging early next year.
I have a 16-channel recording setup that is reasonably portable.
I want to set it up with a laptop and extra monitor to run an entire live show (in a typical bar) digitally, with no analog outboard gear.
I tested it earlier tonight, running only monitors, and after working out a few minor issues with dropouts and glitches, I got it sounding excellent, with minimal latency.
However, my dad doesn't want to take it out to gigs, because it's "unreliable". His thought is that it will inevitably crash, leaving no sound.
I want to use it, because I can't stand not having a gate, comp, and (good) EQ on every channel. The only gear the band has is an old Peavey 24-channel (18 XLR) board, a 2-channel gate/comp (Alesis 2626), and two 31-band graphic EQ's.
I *could* run just that, and it would be *okay*... but I want it to sound GREAT, and the only way to get a great FOH sound is to have enough outboard gear to fit the needs of the band... Or run the sound digitally, and forget all that expensive outboard.

So, my question to my fellow TB'ers is, have you ever played or seen a show that was done the way I'm talking about?
If so, how were the results?
All opinions welcome!

Are you talking about having pre-recorded or pre-sequenced tracks plus some live playing, or simply using your DAW as a mixer for signals that are all live?

Computers get used live often enough that I am sure they can be made sufficiently stable. Having said that, I have been at a concert where everything was held up by a computer crash. I'd certainly think about redundancy, excess capacity, etc.

If you are going to use this sort of technology live I think you would need to use some sort of control surface (which I have no experience of). Trying to mix a live band using a GUI would be unworkable imo. I also wonder whether you'll find yourself missing useful features. PFL comes to mind.

On the other hand, you could tip a beer over the mixer to show your dad that older gear is not foolproof either. Don't ask me how I know this

[seanm]

I would be nervous about using the DAW and laptop too. They just aren't as robust as live gear. Yes, I know some people gig with laptops but I sure wouldn't rely on them.

It sounds like your Dad already has a good analog setup that he trusts, why not use that? Mixing for live sound is very different from mixing for recording. I think you will find the Peavey is good enough.

[Spfairchild]

Ableton Live, my man. That's what it's made for. I've been using it live for effects hosting for about 4 years now. Works great, near zero audible latency, just awesome. If you have a decent dual core with 4gb of RAM, you're set! You can try a trial for free for 30 days - you can download from their website.

[DuraMorte]

Wow, thanks for the input everyone!

Originally Posted by fingerbun

Are you talking about having pre-recorded or pre-sequenced tracks plus some live playing, or simply using your DAW as a mixer for signals that are all live?
Computers get used live often enough that I am sure they can be made sufficiently stable. Having said that, I have been at a concert where everything was held up by a computer crash. I'd certainly think about redundancy, excess capacity, etc.
If you are going to use this sort of technology live I think you would need to use some sort of control surface (which I have no experience of). Trying to mix a live band using a GUI would be unworkable imo. I also wonder whether you'll find yourself missing useful features. PFL comes to mind.
On the other hand, you could tip a beer over the mixer to show your dad that older gear is not foolproof either. Don't ask me how I know this

There will be zero prerecorded material; everything is being performed live.
I've thought about backups; I would bring the Peavey dinosaur in the event of a catastrophic failure, but I don't foresee a catastrophic failure of that magnitude. I mean, the laptop would have to bite the dust, and the thing is brand new.
Re: control surface: nah. With my optical mouse and dual screen setup, I'm sure I could mix pretty well. Tactile feedback isn't important to me, because I've gone all this time without it. I can see some guys feeling naked without their faders, but I've used the mouse for years; it's second nature. Also, I have PFL via my interface's input monitoring screen.

Originally Posted by seanm

I would be nervous about using the DAW and laptop too. They just aren't as robust as live gear. Yes, I know some people gig with laptops but I sure wouldn't rely on them.
It sounds like your Dad already has a good analog setup that he trusts, why not use that? Mixing for live sound is very different from mixing for recording. I think you will find the Peavey is good enough.

I've mixed his band on a similar board (and several other bands on terrible gear) in the past; believe me, I know exactly how different studio and live are.
I don't want to use the Peavey board because it *isn't* good enough; three band EQ, no gates, no compression, only 4 outputs aside from the mains... I'm constantly fighting against the limitations of the gear, and making sacrifices that I really don't want to make. Dedicated sub output? Goodbye, one of the two aux sends. EQ on the mains? So long, kick and snare tone.
If I had a few thousand dollars to spend on some outboard stuff to do the job, then I'd be okay. But I don't. What I do have is about a thousand dollars' worth of excellent studio gear. Why not put it to work?

Originally Posted by Spfairchild

Ableton Live, my man. That's what it's made for. I've been using it live for effects hosting for about 4 years now. Works great, near zero audible latency, just awesome. If you have a decent dual core with 4gb of RAM, you're set! You can try a trial for free for 30 days - you can download from their website.

Thanks for the advice, but I plan to run Reaper. I'm already deeply familiar with it and the awesome built-in effects, and it's an insanely stable platform. If I didn't already know it like the back of my hand, though, I'd definitely give Ableton a shot!

[cableguy]

+1 on Reaper. I've only used it in the studio though. Live I might be nervous. You did work out the issues at a live band practice though right? I would run a few practices with it before junmping in live if it were my band. Otherwise make sure you have a back-up plan on the ready. Or if you're really sneakey bring the Peavey but run everything through Reaper.

[seanm]

Let us know how it goes!

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by cableguy

+1 on Reaper. I've only used it in the studio though. Live I might be nervous. You did work out the issues at a live band practice though right? I would run a few practices with it before junmping in live if it were my band. Otherwise make sure you have a back-up plan on the ready. Or if you're really sneakey bring the Peavey but run everything through Reaper.

Well, I'm not certain I worked out ALL the issues; we used a monitors-only setup today, and I would want to run a full, everything+kitchen sink practice or two to make sure it will all work the way I want. However, the results of today's test run were VERY promising. I don't see Reaper being the weak link in the chain, either; it would almost certainly be the computer, with which I had never worked prior to today.
I'd completely plan on bringing a backup if we were to try it; I'm not an idiot, I know how fragile computers are. However, electronic gear in general is fragile. That's why I'm so disappointed in my dad's unwillingness to even give it a chance. It's like he doesn't want to try for fear of failure. But if Edison hadn't tried and failed 30,000 times to make a lightbulb, then our history might be VERY different. If nobody ever pushed the envelope, then no progress would ever occur.

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by seanm

Let us know how it goes!

Absolutely!
I'm probably just going to have to beat his head in about it until he gives in. I really want to push his band's sound to the next level, because they've been plagued by mediocre sound in the past (mostly sub-par gear and bad soundpersons which weren't me; this will be my first time given free rein).

[stingraysvt]

Oh yeah I'm smoking crack, I wanted to try the Waves Pugin for the Yamaha stuff, o1V, LS9...

Same stuff getting used on the Avid gear, and that setup has an external brain for the processing, and is highly reliable I would venture to say. All the major touring artists are making it around with them.

Really helps nail that studio > Live transition that audiences would identify with...

[stingraysvt]

I had some friends that used to use the MoTU MKII to mix a live show off their laptop, small gigs so it worked really well as I understood, that was 5 or 6 years ago even, saved them from investing in a console and they were able to use a host of Plugin's just like you're talking about.

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by stingraysvt

I had some friends that used to use the MoTU MKII to mix a live show off their laptop, small gigs so it worked really well as I understood, that was 5 or 6 years ago even, saved them from investing in a console and they were able to use a host of Plugin's just like you're talking about.

The technology is there for sure. It's just a matter of teaching an old dog (my dad) the virtue of the new tricks.
I'm hoping I can sway him. I was hoping to get some feedback from some folks who had done what I want to do successfully. If I can tell him that people had had good luck with it before, he may be more willing give it more of a chance.

[fingerbun]

Originally Posted by DuraMorte

I've thought about backups; I would bring the Peavey dinosaur in the event of a catastrophic failure, but I don't foresee a catastrophic failure of that magnitude. I mean, the laptop would have to bite the dust, and the thing is brand new.
Re: control surface: nah. With my optical mouse and dual screen setup, I'm sure I could mix pretty well. Tactile feedback isn't important to me, because I've gone all this time without it. I can see some guys feeling naked without their faders, but I've used the mouse for years; it's second nature. Also, I have PFL via my interface's input monitoring screen.

IT guy here, not scared of computers or new technology. Go for it....but.....

Laptops can die...they can die when new if the wrong part fails. They sometimes hang for no reason. Gigs are often unfriendly environments that may not be kind to computers. So your computer may die, it's a real possibility. Is the Peavey dinosaur really an acceptable plan B? How quickly can you patch it in and set up a mix from scratch? Why would your backup not be a second computer configured to slot in?

And my comment about control surfaces has nothing to do with a desire for tactile feedback. A mouse can only operate one control at a time. Fine when you are making small adjustments to an ok mix but useless if disaster happens and you have to change a lot of stuff quickly for whatever reasons. I can mute 8 channels at once if some drunk knocks mics over and creates massive feedback with a conventional mixer, for example, or ride the gain with one hand and fader with the other to get rid of distortion without losing level.

Not trying to talk you out of the idea, I think it's good. Just making suggestions intended to increase your success.

[Munjibunga]

We're now using a PreSonus 16.4.2 digital board which is connected by firewire to a computer. Although we use the computer to record all channels, we're not using it to provide outboard processing, since that's built into the board. What's really cool is that we also have a small router that we use to connect the universal control to an iPad, from which the board can be controlled.

Anyway, your dad has a point. If the computer goes down or the board goes down, you have to stop and reboot. We've had it happen during sound check but, fortunately, not during a gig. Yet.

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by fingerbun

IT guy here, not scared of computers or new technology. Go for it....but.... Laptops can die...they can die when new if the wrong part fails. They sometimes hang for no reason. Gigs are often unfriendly environments that may not be kind to computers. So your computer may die, it's a real possibility. Is the Peavey dinosaur really an acceptable plan B? How quickly can you patch it in and set up a mix from scratch? Why would your backup not be a second computer configured to slot in?
And my comment about control surfaces has nothing to do with a desire for tactile feedback. A mouse can only operate one control at a time. Fine when you are making small adjustments to an ok mix but useless if disaster happens and you have to change a lot of stuff quickly for whatever reasons. I can mute 8 channels at once if some drunk knocks mics over and creates massive feedback with a conventional mixer, for example, or ride the gain with one hand and fader with the other to get rid of distortion without losing level.
Not trying to talk you out of the idea, I think it's good. Just making suggestions intended to increase your success.

I completely appreciate your input; you're thinking of new things that I hadn't considered.
I could bring my desktop for backup, I suppose. But I would think a laptop would be much more suited to the kinds of conditions you typically find in bars (dirty power, interference, etc.); after all, they're made to be portable, first and foremost.

I also understand the suggestion for a control surface, but that's just one more thing I'd have to set up, and one more thing that could fail. I'd much rather mix in the box than have a cheap control surface fail mid-gig. Besides, the whole point of using the recording rig is to avoid buying more gear.
I can ride a gain and fader simultaneously, but I should never have to; I have meters on all my inputs, and I keep my levels conservative, so my inputs should never distort.
I can mute the mains with one click, the subs with another, and any (or all) of the monitors with a third.
What other situations may need multiple simultaneous adjustments?

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

We're now using a PreSonus 16.4.2 digital board which is connected by firewire to a computer. Although we use the computer to record all channels, we're not using it to provide outboard processing, since that's built into the board. What's really cool is that we also have a small router that we use to connect the universal control to an iPad, from which the board can be controlled.
Anyway, your dad has a point. If the computer goes down or the board goes down, you have to stop and reboot. We've had it happen during sound check but, fortunately, not during a gig. Yet.

Those boards are super-sweet, and I wish I had one, but unfortunately I don't, and probably never will.
If that were an option, you can bet I'd be all over it!

[fingerbun]

Originally Posted by DuraMorte

I completely appreciate your input; you're thinking of new things that I hadn't considered.
I could bring my desktop for backup, I suppose. But I would think a laptop would be much more suited to the kinds of conditions you typically find in bars (dirty power, interference, etc.); after all, they're made to be portable, first and foremost.

I also understand the suggestion for a control surface, but that's just one more thing I'd have to set up, and one more thing that could fail. I'd much rather mix in the box than have a cheap control surface fail mid-gig. Besides, the whole point of using the recording rig is to avoid buying more gear.
I can ride a gain and fader simultaneously, but I should never have to; I have meters on all my inputs, and I keep my levels conservative, so my inputs should never distort.
I can mute the mains with one click, the subs with another, and any (or all) of the monitors with a third.
What other situations may need multiple simultaneous adjustments?

I'd think carefully before using a desktop for basically the reasons you say.

Your point about cheap control surfaces is taken, but if it fails you can still do what you plan to do now. The point of redundancy is to build a system that will keep functioning in spite of failures. Sit down, assume a stupid drunk gets on stage and starts playing havoc and creating unexpected situations with the gear. Make a list of things they can do, and figure out how you will handle it.

Killing the entire FOH because you have an issue with two or three channels doesn't seem acceptable to me. If yopu have a control surface it requires two failures instead of one to put you in the poo....enormously improved odds.

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by fingerbun

I'd think carefully before using a desktop for basically the reasons you say.
Your point about cheap control surfaces is taken, but if it fails you can still do what you plan to do now. The point of redundancy is to build a system that will keep functioning in spite of failures.

Sure... But how is a control surface redundancy? The mouse won't fail unless the computer does; it will always be available. So what's the control surface providing by way of security?
I would rather spend the money on a UPS, really. That would be adding a lot of security against power fluctuations and surges.

Originally Posted by fingerbun

Sit down, assume a stupid drunk gets on stage and starts playing havoc and creating unexpected situations with the gear. Make a list of things they can do, and figure out how you will handle it.
Killing the entire FOH because you have an issue with two or three channels doesn't seem acceptable to me. If yopu have a control surface it requires two failures instead of one to put you in the poo....enormously improved odds.

I said I COULD kill the mains with one quick click... I didn't say I HAD to.
I can also mute any/all the vocals, any/all the guitars, and any/all the drums.
The guitars and bass (and keys, when applicable) are direct, so the only live mics onstage are drums and vocals. That cuts down on the chaos quotient quite a bit, I think.