Running satellite cab to support FOH?

thehess · #1 09-09-2011, 03:45 PM

Have an outside gig coming up next weekend. We play either with or without a drummer. This gig is "without", so we are using drum tracks sequenced in Ableton Live - really natural samples, pretty dry, run through stereo monitor wedges. 3 vocalists, acoustic guitar, bass and cello. Overall, in this setup, the onstage volume is very manageable.

My concern for this gig? Its outside, and the PA support is not going to be robust. Should be fine for the rest of the mix, but I was trying to think about ways I could support the low end in the house without overwhelming the group onstage. Has anyone run a satellite cab from their rig out closer to the front, so it gets projection to the house, but doesn't swamp the stage? Meaning, something like this (red highlighted cab)

I'm aware of potential issues with phase cancelation, etc. but if there bass in the FOH, I'd be running into that regardless.

If anyone has done this (successfully or not), or has an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears.

KingRazor · #2 09-09-2011, 04:17 PM

I've considered doing this, I too am interested to see if anyone else has done it.

Barisaxman · #3 09-09-2011, 07:55 PM

You say front of house is not going to be "robust"....do you know what exactly the FOH will consist of?

thehess · #4 09-09-2011, 08:16 PM

I guess that highly technical description wasn't quite detailed enough. I went back, and couldn't find "robust" in my copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

(It's dated, but still a great read if you are into the details)

2 2 ways each side (ported 15" + horn), no subs. Not sure on amplification. It's a small show, but in a large open outdoor plaza, no back wall, etc.

T-Bird · #5 09-10-2011, 01:22 AM

Hi.

Great stage chart, kudos for that.

I'd assume that "the PA support is not going to be robust" means that the PA won't be phase aligned with the bass rig (or the cello rig for that matter) either, so adding yet another un-aligned signal source won't make things any better, that's for sure.

I'd also assume that the subs/bottoms are placed incorrectly on both sides of the stage.

I wouldn't do it in the way You describe.

If I was in a similar situation, and was forced to do something, I'd use an active extension sub that gets its feed from the FOH cros-over.
In reality, I'd refuse to do anything though, very low chance of success, very easy to mess things up even more.

Regards
Sam

atheos · #6 09-10-2011, 01:54 AM

+1 for T-Bird. I wouldn't try to do anything; the whole thing sounds like you can only make it worse or equally bad in a different way.

If you can't fix the PA itself and/or its placement, don't do anything. Two 15" two-way cabs for large outside venue? Ouch. Still, the only real solution is to reinforce the PA with actual PA gear such as (properly placed) subs and not bass cabs.

Joe Smithberger · #7 09-10-2011, 06:55 AM

I have thought of doing something similar but was considering stacking a 210 (facing the players) on top of the front cab (facing the audience) or putting the 210 on the floor behind the front cab facing the players.

Warrior_Bass · #8 09-10-2011, 07:07 AM

I'd say stay out of the mains and use only your amp. I've played too many gigs where 2 15" mains and no subs did no justice for bass at all when playing outdoors. You can still plug into FOH and do monitors.

thehess · #9 09-10-2011, 08:38 AM

Thanks for the input. One clarification - the satellite bass cab is off of my bass amp, not the FOH mix. By FOH support, i meant 'supporting the FOH mix with more bass direct from my rig, as opposed to putting it through the mains'. We'll see how things pan out....but good comments from you all.

thehess · #10 09-10-2011, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Smithberger

I have thought of doing something similar but was considering stacking a 210 (facing the players) on top of the front cab (facing the audience) or putting the 210 on the floor behind the front cab facing the players.

Pretty similiar to what I was suggesting....and probably the way i'll end up going.

brendanbassist · #11 09-10-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehess

...no subs. ... but in a large open outdoor plaza...

All I can say is good luck.

KingRazor · #12 09-10-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehess

Thanks for the input. One clarification - the satellite bass cab is off of my bass amp, not the FOH mix. By FOH support, i meant 'supporting the FOH mix with more bass direct from my rig, as opposed to putting it through the mains'. We'll see how things pan out....but good comments from you all.

That's what I figured you meant.

Do you guys still think the phase issues would make it not worth doing this if the only thing coming from the "satellite cab" would be bass?

4Mal · #13 09-10-2011, 02:45 PM

I've done this many times. In acoustic amplified settings where the FOH consisted of decent but not deep top boxes. I ran a cab out front, under the top. Worked fine. I walked out front (line 6 wireless) for the first tune and did a little balancing then left it alone.

This is a low stage volume setting, so I put an Epifani 1x12 Or fEarful 12.6 out front, keep my little mojo sonic 1x10 near to me. Ran a line from my GK head to the board and robbed the aux2 send and a spare pwr amp channel for the cab out front.

On stage instrumentation is me, mandolin using a small AER as a monitor, Jumbito acoustic guitar through the monitors, archtop 6 string either through a mic'ed Princeton Reverb or direct, everybody sings with lot's of close 3 and sometimes 4 part harmony. The room has a large, hollow and boomy stage which means stage vol has to be way, way low... I think that I've achieved as good a sound using that technique as anyone I've ever heard in there. Listening out front is required though.

steveksux · #14 09-10-2011, 03:30 PM

If you have FOH that can't handle bass, (assuming that's what you mean by "not robust") and everyone else is going through the PA, you'll have to be way too loud on stage to compensate out front.

I've done it before, put one cab under a raised stage by the front.

If the FOH can't support the bass properly with enough volume, and your cabs can, FOH won't be doing a lot of cancelling your cabs. Can't hurt.

In a perfect world, you'd get more FOH, better subs, set up right to handle it. If you don't have that, you have to compromise. One cab out front isn't ideal, but it beats proving all your volume on stage, when everyone else CAN use the PA effectively. Otherwise you'll be way too loud on stage, drown out the people who are in the pa, who will turn up to compensate, its a perfect storm if you like volume wars.

Randy

Stumbo · #15 09-10-2011, 04:05 PM

Why the separate "rhythm" monitors in the backline? IMO, they will add to stage volume unnecessarily. How big are they?

Why not put them FOH under the mains as additional sound reinforcement? Possibly powered by another amplifier. Possibly point them 45 degrees to the center to get coverage in front of the stage and use the 15" mains on poles to cover the rest.

How about a monitor/mix for the cellist with vocals/rhythm only.

For the bass, I suggest stacking your cabs vertically and angling them to center stage. IME, you should be able to get good dispersion w/o blowing every out with the volume. Since your on the left side you can change the angle of your cab, if necessary to improve the onstage volume/dispersion.

IME, it's the directional treble tones that don't get disbursed well that limit a small P.A., not the bass setup. Many times I've heard a band playing outside and it's always the stand alone bass rig (not in the PA) that I hear from a block away.

I strongly suggest you go wireless/long cord, set up early for the gig and do a few sound checks to test your setup and make changes accordingly. Bringing along an extra amp and a couple of (borrowed/rented, if necessary) cabs would be helpful and integrate them as necessary at the gig.

Good luck.

uhdinator · #16 09-10-2011, 07:36 PM

Yep. Bass will disperse everywhere as LF is omnidirectional. Stack your cabs off to side aimed center stage. Lose the back stage monitors. You don't want them there pointed that way for reasons stated. Plus you don't want them pointed at mic's for feed back reasons.
If used or needed put them on the sides behind FOH cabs pointed across stage if at all.

staindbass · #17 09-11-2011, 08:09 AM

the closer it is to the pa speaker, the less cancellation it will suffer. the cancellation comes from the sound arriving at your ears at different times from 2 locations, creating phase issues. give it a shot.

Munjibunga · #18 09-11-2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehess

Have an outside gig coming up next weekend. We play either with or without a drummer. This gig is "without", so we are using drum tracks sequenced in Ableton Live - really natural samples, pretty dry, run through stereo monitor wedges. 3 vocalists, acoustic guitar, bass and cello. Overall, in this setup, the onstage volume is very manageable.

My concern for this gig? Its outside, and the PA support is not going to be robust. Should be fine for the rest of the mix, but I was trying to think about ways I could support the low end in the house without overwhelming the group onstage. Has anyone run a satellite cab from their rig out closer to the front, so it gets projection to the house, but doesn't swamp the stage? Meaning, something like this (red highlighted cab)

I'm aware of potential issues with phase cancelation, etc. but if there bass in the FOH, I'd be running into that regardless.

If anyone has done this (successfully or not), or has an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears.

We put the sub about where you show the satellite cab at our last gig (I recommended against it, but it was another band's show). There were serious phase cancellation issues. There will be for you, too. I won't allow that to happen again.

I'd put the satellite cab right next to (or under) yours. That extra ten feet or so isn't going to affect the volume much on the floor.

ggunn · #19 09-11-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

We put the sub about where you show the satellite cab at our last gig (I recommended against it, but it was another band's show). There were serious phase cancellation issues. There will be for you, too. I won't allow that to happen again.

I'd put the satellite cab right next to (or under) yours. That extra ten feet or so isn't going to affect the volume much on the floor.

One possible issue that comes to mind is that of signal polarity at the speakers. How do you know that it is the same for your amp speakers and the the PA? The signal when it reaches the speakers in the PA has gone through a different chain of gain stages than that from your amp.

thehess · #20 09-11-2011, 10:08 AM

Continuing the TB tradition of excellent, detailed, experience-based comments...and no consensus!

Or rather, consensus on (a) there are many variables and (b) make sure you check it out and don't just "guess" what it sounds like in the house.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Why the separate "rhythm" monitors in the backline? IMO, they will add to stage volume unnecessarily.
<snip>other good suggestions</snip>
Good luck.

Sometimes we play with a drummer, and sometimes not (scheduling conflicts, etc.) I actually screwed up the drawing...those monitor (JBL 12/horn wedges) actually will sit at the drums position. It gives the group consistent rhythm source placement, and doesn't require us polluting their vox monitor mix with the drums. Since the computer output goes to the house, we just need enough volume onstage to stay locked. The sequences I built in Ableton all use the same natural kit, with the same EQ/compression and almost no FX. It sounds and feels almost like you have a drummer sitting back there, which works nicely when we can't have the real thing.