Seeking advice on amp placement

strummer21 · #1 06-11-2009, 02:22 PM

We are playing a small bar gig that we have played at before with a terrible set up. It is a long narrow room approximately 12 feet wide by 60 feet long with the bar running lengthwise up the side with about a 15 ft high ceiling). We only run vocals through the PA and we are on the same level as the audience (no stage). What is the best way to set up my amp/cab (probably a single 4x10)? Should I have it angled up or flat on the floor pointing right into the crowd or maybe on a stand. The crowd of about 80 will mostly be standing room only to the back of the bar. The last time we played there it was very difficult to hear us in the back (we play very loud so it's more an accoustics problem then a volume problem) Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

groove pump · #2 06-13-2009, 07:58 AM

The first thing that comes to mind for me is that I'd want to be set up where my drummer could hear me alright. When I played with a 4x10, I had to be more careful not to get my rig too far in front of him, but now I use a pair of 2x10's and things are more flexible.

In that sort of tighter setting, I'd also want to get my cab up a bit more to help my sound get out into the room. I depend on my mids to carry a lot of my tone instead of shaking a venue with super low freq's and I think that getting the cab away from the floor can help. With no stage to elevate you, you'll need to do that part yourself I guess.

OtterOnBass · #3 06-13-2009, 11:08 AM

Sound travels in straight lines. If someone can't see your cone, they aren't hearing your amp, just the sound reflections. When sound reflects, the sound waves have to travel farther and the highs lose power first.

The lows travel straight, but at around 300 hz, they begin traveling in every direction, not just straight out of the front of the cone. This means that they travel out of the back and the sides of the amp, hit the walls and travel back. When this happens, the returning wave either boost or subtract from the waves leaving your amp. The rule of thumb is never put your amp 2-8 feet from a wall, or you will cancel out a bass frequency. The reflection from 8 foot ceilings often make the bass seem quiet when you are by the amp, and cause bassists to overpower the room to compensate. The good news is if you put your amp by the wall, or even better by two walls (i.e. a corner) you can get a lot more low end for no extra power.

Okay, enough science lesson. Put the main speakers above the head level of the crowd, and subs in the corner. If you're only using individual amps, put the bass amp against the wall tilted up, or in the corner if it's available. Aiming the cabinets to reflect off the ceiling is better than hoping the various other reflections make it to the end of the room.

JimmyM · #4 06-13-2009, 04:46 PM

Otter, slight correction...sound above 100 hz IS directional, but that doesn't mean you can't spread the sound out throughout the room. A smaller mid driver will spread the mids and highs out pretty well. But a 410 isn't the rig to do it with because of "beaming," where a larger driver broadcasts higher freqs in an increasingly narrow field. And two 10"s side by side have an effecting beaming capacity of a 21" driver, which means you won't get much mid/high end on either side of the cab at all.

BUT...all is not lost...I've heard plenty of 410 rigs that sound great without PA support. While you might not get such great response off to the side of it (unless you have a tweeter, and then you'll hear your highs just fine), it can still fill a room quite well and sound pretty good, just not like using a PA. And despite the beaming, my favorite cab of all time is still my old Ampeg 810, and I don't care so much that it beams.

What I would do if I were the OP is either tilt it back or put it on a stand. Then you can hear your cab as the crowd in front of it hears it.

Chris K · #5 06-14-2009, 03:14 PM

Really no joke. Try it! Since the room isn't all that large, I would set up the cab FACING a corner (the best option) or the wall at only a few inches' distance.
Low sounds easily get absorbed by soft objects, like people. So the trick is to spread the sound along the walls before it hits the audience.
Very curious to hear if it worked.

AxtoOx · #6 06-14-2009, 03:32 PM

I'm blessed w/ a very nice PA, but even we couldn't make everyone happy in there.
I'd just set it up so it sounds good on the dance floor (or whatever) and just go w/ it.

We play one place that is long and in like 3 sections. The people there for the music sit up front. Party people, in front of the bar. Just want to talk or pick up someone. The back.
Nobody leaves to go someplace else.

MNAirHead · #7 06-15-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris K

Really no joke. Try it! Since the room isn't all that large, I would set up the cab FACING a corner (the best option) or the wall at only a few inches' distance.
Low sounds easily get absorbed by soft objects, like people. So the trick is to spread the sound along the walls before it hits the audience.
Very curious to hear if it worked.

How do you combat delay etc?

To do this, I've normally had un controllable EQ.. some frequencies go bonkers.. some are lost.

The Bose Wave radio uses this techinque

(b)Assman · #8 06-15-2009, 07:28 PM

great info guys.

strummer21 · #9 06-15-2009, 08:38 PM

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'm going to angle the cab upwards a bit. Last time we played there I had it elevated but level and it blasted the people right in front of it, so if I angle it up it will carry over some of the crowd not through it. I don't know about that facing the corner suggestion, it may work, but we are a bit too far from a wall behind us and a corner to make that way work.

TimmyP · #10 06-21-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris K

Low sounds easily get absorbed by soft objects, like people. So the trick is to spread the sound along the walls before it hits the audience.
Very curious to hear if it worked.

Highs are absorbed by soft objects. Lows aren't affected unless the crowd is all scrunched up together.

**Stumbo** · #11 06-22-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strummer21

The crowd of about 80 will mostly be standing room only to the back of the bar.

I suggest all e.q./cab adjustments/sound checks be done under direction of someone who is where the audience is.

MNAirHead · #12 06-24-2009, 03:43 AM

minimal stage sound and a DI

strummer21 · #13 06-29-2009, 08:19 PM

Had the gig this past weekend and the actual mix and sound was pretty good (I got my cab up a little bit). We got there early enough this time to rearrange the room by moving tables back away from in front of us and had a buffer of about 8-10 ft in front of us and that made a huge difference. The only problem was the venue's PA which wasn't working and we ended up using our powered speaker that we were planning on using as a monitor for the vocals. So everything was good except for the vocals not being loud enough.