That "smiley face" sound

dbassman59 · #1 02-13-2009, 03:23 PM

I've been playing for over 20 years ... and I am amazed at how much I am constantly learning. The more I learn ..the more I realize how little I know.

For example I used to set the tone on my amp to the sound I like for practicing (jamming) by myself. Suprisingly or not, the setting I like to hear when by myself is the classic smiley face EQ. (I now realize, thanks to most in TB, that is a no-no when playing live)

When I played live either in practice, or on stage ... I would just turn up the volume to the nice warm sound I liked to hear while standing in front of my mic onstage (or in rehearsal).

The guys in my band were complaining sometimes about it, I just dismissed it thinking all they wanted to hear was themselves. Afterall, guitar does cut clearer through the mix.

I now have learned they weren't complaining about bass as in bass guitar but more of the whompf I was filling the room with.

I have since learned (thanks to the wisdom of my fellow TB'rs) that I should run my mids higher. This way I will hear myself better on stage without flooding the stage and dance floor with "whompf".

Now when just by myself, with the mids turned up ... I don't like the sound ... but I think when I'm live ... it's completely different ... Do any of you find the same thing?

Now a question regarding DI ... after reading many of the threads on TB ... it sounds like it is a better idea to DI to the PA and let the PA carry the bass ... after all we mic up the guitars ....

Therefore how do I get that "smiley face" eq sound live and in the mix I like so much when I jam alone?

What are your opinions?

gregoire1 · #2 02-13-2009, 03:31 PM

I was, at first, very hesitant to change my eq also. I set up when playing by myself. After all, if it sounded good when isolated, it would sound great when jamming with other musicians right?
My amp has a four band eq. All I have to do is back off the lows a little (about an eighth of a turn) and turn up my mid-lows about the same. It does sound a little different but far better live.

Jehos · #3 02-13-2009, 05:40 PM

The smiley face sound is almost never good in a band situation, whether you're playing through your amp or the PA. It's just the nature of the beast--what sits well in a mix isn't what sounds good solo, period, because you're notching out all these frequencies so that other instruments can have their space to play in too.

About the only instrument that is allowed to have the smiley sound is the drummer--they should get the lows and the highs.

kesslari · #4 02-13-2009, 05:50 PM

Funny thing - the guitarist I work with has a nice home studio.
First time we went to record he brought up a saved EQ to use for my bass.
It was titled "bass players love this EQ".
I listened, and then looked at the settings, and said "This bass player does NOT love this EQ".
Then we set a nice mid-humpy frown for me, and we were all happy and stuff...

RicPlaya · #5 02-14-2009, 01:35 PM

This holds true for all instruments. Guitar players get upset because they have to take bass out of their tone, bass players need more mids to cut in the mix.

bigblondeafro87 · #6 02-15-2009, 01:00 PM

Getting a 15 band graphic eq or a multiband parametric can really help dialing in the sound you want to hear. Oftentimes the 'mids' knob on an amp affects the wrong frequenices (too high) instead of what they should be.

I find that frequencies from 250-450 hz, when boosted too much sound dry and lifeless, although they cut through excellent. A slight boost here if you need to stand out more is all thats needed. Boosting frequencies around 800-1000 hz gives you a nice cutting tone similar to that of a stingray. I find cutting anything below 80-100 hz really helps clear mud from the sound and from 160-220 hz is the butta zone where the lovely smooth low growl is.

Of course, this greatly depends on the room, so feel free to do a lot of experimenting.

JustDavid · #7 02-15-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbassman59

Now when just by myself, with the mids turned up ... I don't like the sound ... but I think when I'm live ... it's completely different ... Do any of you find the same thing?

Oh yeah! Hate it!!

But it's the way things are.

I try to rationalize it this way; I love chocolate cake, but I hate the taste of flour. Though that might generate some REALLY interesting replies, it helps me accept the lousy sound out of context of it's intended environment.

dbassman59 · #8 02-15-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustDavid

...I love chocolate cake, but I hate the taste of flour....

You put that very elegantly my friend!! I totally understand what you are saying .... I am experimenting now more than I ever have ... I know it won't be long before I get exactly the "live" (out in the audience) tone now that I have all these pointers ...

But ... I am continually learning even after 20 odd years plus of playing live .. so I appreciate all the pointers and hope to hear more!!

Williamsburgjim · #9 02-16-2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbassman59

I've been playing for over 20 years ... and I am amazed at how much I am constantly learning. The more I learn ..the more I realize how little I know.

For example I used to set the tone on my amp to the sound I like for practicing (jamming) by myself. Suprisingly or not, the setting I like to hear when by myself is the classic smiley face EQ. (I now realize, thanks to most in TB, that is a no-no when playing live)

When I played live either in practice, or on stage ... I would just turn up the volume to the nice warm sound I liked to hear while standing in front of my mic onstage (or in rehearsal).

The guys in my band were complaining sometimes about it, I just dismissed it thinking all they wanted to hear was themselves. Afterall, guitar does cut clearer through the mix.

I now have learned they weren't complaining about bass as in bass guitar but more of the whompf I was filling the room with.

I have since learned (thanks to the wisdom of my fellow TB'rs) that I should run my mids higher. This way I will hear myself better on stage without flooding the stage and dance floor with "whompf".

Now when just by myself, with the mids turned up ... I don't like the sound ... but I think when I'm live ... it's completely different ... Do any of you find the same thing?

Now a question regarding DI ... after reading many of the threads on TB ... it sounds like it is a better idea to DI to the PA and let the PA carry the bass ... after all we mic up the guitars ....

Therefore how do I get that "smiley face" eq sound live and in the mix I like so much when I jam alone?

What are your opinions?

I'm afraid I too fell into this misconception as well, and for the longest time didn't get-it. Now I finally understand. Too, I guess that's why when you read amp manuals they have suggested settings, duh! For example for live shows now I use (Ampeg's) a rock EQ setting which primarliy boosts around 1.6K, and for the most part keeps most everything else flat. And when I'm slapping only change to the smiley face.

Keep in mind that there are so many other variables though. I learned this when at church they recorded the live shows. For example, the other day I just put flats on my Roscoe for a couple of songs (I primarily gig w/ a MIA active Fender J-5 w/ SS strings), and heard the recording and was pissed. The sound guy asked me what was wrong cause it was too muddy as he was trying to EQ it out. I told him I switched basses.... .

I don't know...one thing is, I believe it's safe to say that running single coil pups makes everyone's job easier by having a better rate of success in helping things sit better/helps with the guesswork.

Those are my thoughts... .

Jimbob

dbassman59 · #10 02-16-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Williamsburgjim

... I learned this when at church they recorded the live shows. ...Jimbob

I play at church too ... Obviously you DI out. I assume you are DI'ing out of your amp ... Do you DI pre or post EQ?

Williamsburgjim · #11 02-16-2009, 03:30 PM

At Church, I only use a pre amp (SVP-CL) and send DI out-post, using their floor snake to FOH. That way, I have control over what I'm sending coloration wise, but obviously use their rack amps instead of lugging equip.. Plus we use Aviom in-ears so I don't need a amp/cab and/or stage monitor (we do have side fills though).

In the cover band project, I DI out-post w/ my SVT 3 Pro with the traditional cab monitor set-up. As I mentioned earlier, I EQ the same way in both projects. Seems to work for most places. (BTW, I don't lug my CL around... .)

Jimbob

Johnny Mack · #12 02-17-2009, 12:10 AM

another convert here. i used to heavily use the contour knob to get that sound. meanwhile, i would crank 2khz. scary. anyway, once i eased into a flat EQ (did NOT happen overnight) i really prefer the sound live (obviously) and solo. it sounded honky and terrible at first, but one day i took my rig into the garage and just played with the EQ for probably a couple hours. eventually my ears were so tired, once i went flat i thought THATS THE SOUND! i then would add in the ol' contour and suddenly it had lost something. i will say that on really boomy stages i inject just a tiddly bit of contour to pull out some low mids that are making it nasty.

Jake of Bass · #13 02-19-2009, 12:10 AM

From what I remember of grade 12 audio class was that the old adage "when in doubt, smile" was suited more for an eq of the overall mix, rather than instrument specific.

seanm · #14 02-19-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbassman59

Therefore how do I get that "smiley face" eq sound live and in the mix I like so much when I jam alone?

You don't

Just send a nice pre-eq signal to the FOH and let them get the best sound.

The way I figure it, either the soundman is good, or the soundman is bad. If the soundman is bad, you are basically screwed no matter what you do, so you might as well live with it.

But if he is good, then he will EQ properly for the venue to make your bass sound like the great sound you get at home. Or possibly even better!

Intune · #15 02-19-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanm

You don't

Just send a nice pre-eq signal to the FOH and let them get the best sound.

The way I figure it, either the soundman is good, or the soundman is bad. If the soundman is bad, you are basically screwed no matter what you do, so you might as well live with it.

But if he is good, then he will EQ properly for the venue to make your bass sound like the great sound you get at home. Or possibly even better!

Yep. Venues are all so different that I always start flat. With NO pa on. Pre. Good volume, twist some knobs for optimum tone & move on with sound check. I only go to slider-city eq with a really messed up room.

AndyLES · #16 02-19-2009, 01:54 PM

Google the "Fletcher Munson" curves and/or "Equal loudness contours."

Yeah, the scoop sound is great in the bedroom....but at gig volumes? Blech!

SteveC · #17 02-19-2009, 02:25 PM

I actually kinda like the reverse smiley sound even by myself. I love that mid growl.

silky smoove · #18 02-19-2009, 03:08 PM

It never ceases to amaze me when I have this conversation with soundguys (happened last night as a matter of fact):
SG: Does your amp have a DI?
Me: Sure does. I've got it set to pre so you've got all the control out front.
SG: Wow! Thanks man, you're making it too easy on me.

It seems like going pre, provided you don't have tons of crazy effects that need to go to FOH along with your clean tone, just makes the most sense if you think about it in any logical fashion. Certainly get your amp EQ'd right for stage use, but let the soundguy do his job rather than fighting him all night.

GSPLBASSDC · #19 02-19-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveC

I actually kinda like the reverse smiley sound even by myself. I love that mid growl.

Yep... That where I am as well. I prefer a bit more bottom end, so the smile is kinda off, but definitely not the standard smiley face...

JTE · #20 02-19-2009, 05:02 PM

"When in doubt, smile"?!? The real answer is "He who EQ's the least wins". The "smiley face" worked with home stereos that first had graphic EQ's in the '70s to compensate for the mid-heavy speakers. Plus, just like setting an analog clock face to 10:10 or 1:50, it looked better to consumers. Had little to do with sound. Cutting the mids sucks the vocals out of a mix, and boosting the lows sucks power out of the amp.

jte