So my church is getting an iLive...

Jimbob Jones · #1 03-19-2011, 07:36 AM

...and I can't say that I'm too happy about it.

Surface

Mix rack

It makes sense to get it, we have a 900 seat auditorium with a 10k FOH, so it's not like it'll be 'too much for the venue'.

And don't get me wrong, it'll be a fantastic tool, I'll have a lot of fun spending time immersing myself in the extra features; finally getting to gate the kit, get some decent comp on the vocals and have the option to use more than 2 reverbs simultaneously across the mix.

My issue is that over half the sound team (a rota of ~20 people across the 5 services we have each week) are rookies. On the current analogue system they have little or no idea how to put a decent mix together, and the services often suffer as a result. I must say I'm worried that with the extra complexity of a digital desk, that the sound is going to get 'show-stoppingly bad'.

Unfortunately, as far as authority goes, I'm just a worried old hand, so although I can suggest that the new guys will need more training, I can't make it happen. There's also a whole heap of politics concerning the rota, so the experienced guys can't just take over until the rookies are up to speed.

Anyway, sorry to vent; what I really started this thread for was to ask if anyone had experience of digital desks (iLive or other) and if anyone had any tips, especially anything that would makes someones first time on a digital desk less daunting.

Thanks guys!

Joe

shizoz · #2 03-19-2011, 08:19 AM

Hey Joe,
I'm one of the engineers for my church whose main venue is around the same size as yours, and we went with a digital desk a few years ago. I train most of the guys on how to use it, and yes, some things about the desk are a little intimidating for some, but with some patience, they can understand how to use it. Unfortunately, the one thing I have not been super successful with is teaching a non-musical person how to mix. That is where the artistry comes in, and I feel like either you have it or you don't. Or at least have a passion for it or you don't. I have a few guys that are not musicians that run the services from time to time, and they are the ones that seem to get noticed the most when back behind the desk (in a somewhat negative way). If you are using folks as well that do not have a musical background, I strongly suggest that you have them do some ear training and listen to the music! I cannot say enough about how important it is to be familiar with the songs so that you can anticipate mix changes and you also have a point of reference about how the song should sound. Of course the band must be doing their part as well!
Now, as far as a digital desk goes, I'm very happy we upgraded. Yes, you will have so much more flexibility with this format than what you are used to, but as I'm sure you know, that can introduce more issues for the layman. The one thing that you may not realize is an advantage is that you are dealing with rookies, and therefore, they may be easier to train on the new console due to the fact that they have not spent years mixing on an analog desk. I've seen this be a roadblock for veterans if you will...
Some observations and suggestions:
Flipping the faders, changing layers, pages, etc. - this seems to 'freak' some out. It takes a little while for some to warm up to the idea that a fader can be different inputs depending on what layer you are on. They just have to get used to it, but MUST get comfortable with it. Emphasize the importance of paying attention to where they are on the console. The great thing about digital desks is that inputs can be placed anywhere and sometimes in more than 1 location (I can't remember if the iLive will let you double patch).
Visual feedback is better. You have a better graphical representation of what a gate/comp and EQ is actually doing. This can aid you in training as it is much more visual - i.e. you can see gain reductions and EQ curves. One drawback I've found is that people will tend to make changes to match what they remember seeing instead of what they are hearing. Trust your ears first! If it sounds good, it usually is.
Spend some time building a library of presets for sources. This has been the greatest asset I believe to our success in the transition. Work on EQ's, gates, comps for the house drum kit. Get a good channel strip for the worship leader and his guitar/keyboard. Get an intelligible EQ on the pastor... Save your processing for everything! Then when you need to build a new show, just dump those settings in and have the volunteer manage fader levels. This has worked great for us and has provided consistency from week to week.
A friend of mine is an installer and just put an iLive in a church about a month ago. I thought for the price point, it was a great board. And let me tell you, they did a great job on the iPad app. You pretty much have full control over the console.
Hope this helps, and God bless!

TimmyP · #3 03-20-2011, 11:26 PM

My way of thinking, by the time a church gets to a system of that caliber, they ought to be able to cough up the cash to pay a competent mixperson. If Sunday mornings and I got along, I'd jump at such a gig.

WalterBush · #4 03-20-2011, 11:50 PM

My church went from a Mackie VLZ board with tons of outboard processing to a Yamaha M7 a couple years back. It was just me and the other soundguy, and our media director. We'd all had some experience running live sound outside of a worship setting. Now, it's my dad and the media director (both experienced), and a handful of people that have little to no experience running sound.

My advice would be (barring slashing the number of people in rotation in half) don't let newbies touch dynamics, EQ, or input settings...faders only, so they get an idea of what they're doing musically.

One of the beauties of presets is that you can set up a sound system to bring people up to speed gradually, according to what they can handle; faders only at first, and they can play with EQ, compression, etc as they learn at rehearsals with no fear of losing settings for the services. You're not dumping ideas about gain structure, compression, EQ, gating, and effects on top of them while they're still learning how to find where the feedback is coming from, or how to listen and know if it's the keyboard or bass that's suddenly booming out.

Just put together some presets that don't involve them adjusting anything beyond faders until they're ready. This is also an easy way to find out who's going home and reading audio magazines, or checking out Pro Sound Web, and who's just looking to play with expensive toys and doesn't care about the outcome. The learners come back and ask questions about the other controls on the board; non-learners just put time in, which is fine, since thanks to preset recall they can't really do much damage, at least, they haven't at my church.

Anyway, that's how we set it up, and it's working so far. Let us know how it works out, and God bless you.

walker rosewood · #5 03-20-2011, 11:59 PM

Like Shizoz said, it can be a little daunting getting used to digital. But if these guys are rookies then they won't have to many analog hang-ups anyway.

Also, scene's and presets are awesome. If you set up a scene well, the noobs should be able to recall it and be good to go. It may even be easier to learn some concepts about gates, comps, etc because they can see where you've set things. Also, if it's anything like the M7 or LS-9, there are nice graphic representations of the processing on the screen.

Just be sure to save a "base" scene that only the competent techs can access. Then duplicate that scene, re-name it, and let the noobs have at it. I'm not familiar with the iLive but there are probably more then enough scene slots for everybody.

Jimbob Jones · #6 03-21-2011, 03:13 AM

Thanks for the replies guys!

First, I'd just like to say that I entirely agree with shizoz's point about musicality; all the best sound guys I know are musicians as well. I'll definitely try and get the guys listening more!

The iLive has around 100 scenes (The A&H site is down right now so I can't check the exact number), so yeah, plenty for all. I think the plan is to do what you've suggested with restricting functionality, but take it one step further, so there are even certain channels that they won't have access to (the kit will be cut down to 3 mics, reverb returns will be off as well) so as not to complicate things too far.

Fortunately, there's only one person on the team with the 'false confidence' to try and use bits of the system he isn't confident with (for example, with the present system, he put every single channel through the subs (aux 1), of course there wasn't a huge difference, but every time the preacher said 'p', the stage shook!).

Thanks for the support everyone!

MNAirHead · #7 03-21-2011, 07:48 AM

Jimbob...

Quite sincerly...

For what you're describing.. you guys really should cough up a few bucks to hire talented and tenured folks.

Once a written manual is available... the next step is to hire people to execute it.

Issue with 20 rotating volunteers is that newbies percieve flipping knobs as work.. vs hawking feedback ring.

(and yes.. I'm a sound director for a church.. they choked when I submitted a plan... we now have zero complaints.)

Jimbob Jones · #8 03-21-2011, 08:13 AM

I totally see what you're saying, but the flip side of the coin is that we have at least 6 really good engineers (not including me). I guess the real issue is the politics; there are no teams made entirely of rookies, but (for some reason) the rookies end up mixing FOH while the experienced guys end up on monitors, as a 'runner' or just sitting there, letting it sound bad. Because of the services I'm involved in, I'm rarely in a team, I usually mix on my own.

I really don't know why the rookies end up on FOH, but they repeatedly do, I guess the experienced guys don't feel any need to prove themselves and want to let the new guys grow and get good... Something to bring up in the next meeting methinks!

MNAirHead · #9 03-21-2011, 08:51 PM

You can borrow my line... "Because they're willing and able.. doesn't make them qualified to create noise.. we're in the Joyful noise realm here"

I'm blessed to have been around this a few times.... First rule I started with was "free introductory coaching" Basically I wrote a seminar on what band mix and production is all about. IF they don't want to master this aspect, they aren't interested enough to play or produce.

All of my sound techs volunteers are required to edit the written procedures. .. this is after they read the Yamaha Book.

We always hire an outside professional.. the volunteers report to him.. this squelches the PR issues and ensures that the best guy in the place runs FOH

totallyfrozen · #10 03-22-2011, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

So my church is getting an iLive...
Surface
Mix rack

WOW! I guess someone's been paying their tithe.

Jimbob Jones · #11 03-22-2011, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

WOW! I guess someone's been paying their tithe.

We're having the big digital TV switchover here in the UK, so all of our radio gear will be obsolete by the summer. Because of this, the government are buying it all off of us for around £19k, so that's where 90% of the budget is coming from! Of course, we have to buy some new radio gear, but with the new Line6 system available, we're not going to spend anywhere near the 19k.

And I will most definitely be borrowing that line MNAirHead!

I know for a fact that the church won't even consider hiring a pro in; we do for some of the big events, but there simply isn't the 'rolling' budget for another salary. Besides, three of our voluntary guys have some form of qualification in sound engineering. (not that that really counts for anything nowadays)

jaywa · #12 03-22-2011, 07:10 AM

The biggest problem with FOH in churches isn't that the sound techs don't know how to run the gear... it's that they don't know how to mix.

No amount of gee-whiz technology in the world can fix bad ears and/or the apparent perception that bottom end is "the enemy".

TimmyP · #13 03-22-2011, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

......we have at least 6 really good engineers (not including me).......

Does that mean that there are seven, or that you stink? :-)

Jimbob Jones · #14 03-23-2011, 02:46 AM

I wouldn't like to comment on my own skills...come to church one week I'm on and make your own judgement.

jaywa: I totally agree; if I am able to put any word in on the training side of things, then there will definitely be training on how to mix as well as how to use the gear. There should be anyway. Hopefully.

Jimbob Jones · #15 04-08-2011, 02:38 AM

Well, I'm just about to go to church and do the switchover, then run the first few services on it tonight/Sunday. I'll report back soon!

I must say that I'm excited; I've had a chat with the leader of the sound team, and he's pretty much agreed with all the points that have been raised in this thread. Hopefully we can get some proper training on the go soon!

Never_grew_up · #16 04-09-2011, 07:34 AM

Just a thought - If you're buying the desk from a local vendor rather than just making a box buy from a website maybe you could get the vendor to to do an 'orientation' on the desk for everyone. It eliminates the politics because he's a knowlegeable 3rd party (not someone on the sound team who thinks he's smarter than the rest) and it sets the 'rules' for how the desk will be operated in your venue.

Never_grew_up · #17 04-09-2011, 07:45 AM

PS - Might even need to have a few 'bad' services to prove the point that the training is necessary. Going from analog(ue) to digital is MUCH more difficult than just going from a Mackie 1604 to a bigger mixer w/VCAs and a matrix output.
Stressing things like NOT customizing things for each mixing person so that everyone knows the pastor is on channel/fader 1, instead of the left handed mixing guy putting it way at the other end of the desk.
Nothing worse than trying to figure out 'who touched it last' because everything is bass-ackwards from where it should be.

Jimbob Jones · #18 05-05-2011, 03:55 PM

Hi all, Just thought I'd follow this up, now that the iLive is installed and we've been running with it for a few weeks!

It's fantastic. Over easter we close-mic'd a chambre orchestra (52 channels total on the night), something we simply wouldn't have been able to achieve with the old analogue desk. (mic'ing the orch up 'properly' with a pair of condensers wasn't really feasible). We had quite a few 'it was the best Easter production the church has ever done' comments, but that was due to the production team too, not just the techs.

The teams have been shuffled slightly so that the rookies look after the mix once someone who knows what they're doing has set it up, instead of being left to do it themselves from scratch. This works for now and we're looking in to getting some proper training done, whether internally or externally.

The desk itself is incredible. Now that I understand how it actually works, (

) I have to say that it's by far the best thing to use at a live show, unless you have 6 figures to spend on analogue. Being able to walk around the room, mixing from my laptop is not only an enormously useful tool, but it also satisfies my inner geek (it's so cool!)

The only problems we've had so far have been due to people not being 100% comfortable with the interface (for example a channel being patched into a muted group that's been removed from the surface). I must say that I'm excited; things are looking good for the future!