SOLO VERSUS IN BAND SOUND

rymiraflores · #1 04-26-2011, 09:35 AM

This is a well known effect but I am curious about what exactly happens....practise at home and set the amp to my "perfect" tone , then play with the band and have to take off bass and add middle and treble to have the same perceived sound....why is this?

Bardley · #2 04-26-2011, 09:40 AM

The environment is totally different. You have different resonant frequencies, reflections, ambient noise, etc. Also, with a band you will have competing frequencies causing phase issues that you will hear. You have to adjust for each different environment you play in. It pays to fully understand all the tone shaping options on your specific gear so when you get to a new place you can shape your tone pretty quickly. It just takes time and practice.

tangentmusic · #3 04-26-2011, 09:47 AM

Couple things happen here.
First, you are practicing at home by yourself at lower volume levels and in different acoustics room-wise. Second, while playing with the band, sonic space is being taken up by the other instruments. You will have to adjust your EQ settings accordingly in order for you to occupy your own sonic space. You are also playing louder and in a different room acoustically. Adjustments will most always need to be made in whatever situation you're playing in. Gig settings, you will find, will vary from venue to venue depending on the size of the gig space and the gig's acoustics.

Edit:I just said almost exactly what Bardley said!

D.A.R.K. · #4 04-26-2011, 09:49 AM

At home, have someone bash a cymbal next to yer ear while you are playing. Instant cure for pesky fret noise.

Pollinator95 · #5 04-26-2011, 09:53 AM

Due to the Equal Loudness Parameters (or Fletcher - Munson), your ears don´t respond equally at all sound pressure levels. At 100 dB, the lows are boosted by 6 dB and the highs by 3 dB (I believe). They are really flat, it´s just our ears respond differently to different SPL and frequencies.
This doesn´t just affect your EQ: an octave pedal is about the lows, so it will sound too loud at the gig. OD/DS/fuzz is about the mids, so it will be too quiet.
So if you HAVE to set your tone at low volume level, set your ideal tone, and then lower the bass and treble, turn your octaver down, and crank the gain. Then fine-tune during your 20-second soundcheck.

EDIT: I got most of this from Alex Claber. He writes some interesting stuff, and makes awesome cabs!

rymiraflores · #6 04-26-2011, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

At home, have someone bash a cymbal next to yer ear while you are playing. Instant cure for pesky fret noise.

:crying
ah yes...the joys of enthusiastic drummers

badboy1984 · #7 04-26-2011, 09:55 AM

it usually sound crap when you stand next to your amp with the full band. To be at least but it sounded great to the crowd lol.

Also to know weather you are too loud or not. I will play and adjust the volume till I can just manage to hear myself. That way is not too loud for everyone.

**gard0300** · #8 04-26-2011, 02:23 PM

I know that the good ole bass drum eats most of my bottom end up out of the mix. Also, being in a twin guitar band the high end is gone as well. That leaves the mids for us bass players. The more you embrace the middle of the mix, the happier you'll be. I'm not saying your not being represented in the low end (just drop out and watch all the heads turn around), but I think when you play by yourself your playing to please yourself as opposed to offering a specific frequency to the mix. IMHO

TimmyP · #9 04-26-2011, 09:35 PM

If the guitars are taking up the high spectrum, they likely sound lousy out front - the ole' 'rumble and a bag of bees' tone that is what I encounter so often.

bassnat · #10 05-07-2011, 09:21 PM

No doubt about it. Those rich, fat, warm, thick tones out of your amp without the band are also what are referred to as "muddy" in the context of a band mix. That nice band mix tone without the band is, "my tone needs help"...... imo

groove pump · #11 05-08-2011, 11:07 AM

Your parking space in the tonal spectrum can also get squeezed if the guitar heroes you play with like to turn their lower freq's on their eq's up toward what they consider to be "awesome" and/or "heavy". That can leave not-so-much room for you in the sandbox. When it happens, you may need to risk a serious breach of etiquette by walking over to said guitar hero's amp and physically dialing down the lows on his (hers?... doubtful!) eq. Better ask for permission there.

The other thing I can think of is a whole lot harder to predict. I once got myself a gorgeous used Warwick Corvette and I had a full Bartolini set of pickups and preamp to drop into it. My thinking was that this would sound like something heavenly... and it did... by itself. Buttery schmoooove!

Then I took that bass to a couple of gigs and (cue crickets) it was a whole different story. My tone had absolutely not "cut" to it. By that, I mean that it wasn't audible in a mix with the band, regardless of my eq settings. Even in practice sessions the bass was hard to hear, but my rinky-dink parts Jazz ran loud 'n proud in the exact same setting. Fortunately, I had no trouble selling that lovely Warwick.

It can be nearly impossible to be sure just how the tone in a bass will "cut" when you play it solo in a shop or at home. Just something to watch out for in your travels. It can be easy to fall in love with a nice ride, but we often don't know the whole story until after making the purchase and using the instrument in a show or two.

uhdinator · #12 05-08-2011, 11:18 PM

Doing mixing an recording I use HPF on all guitar tracks and vocals to take out some rumble. It's true that guitars especially down tuned can really mud up the mix.
When mixing guitar recordings I cut most of the 200hz and below to leave Room for bass. It's not always easy to get guitarists who think their thick fat tone is great to understand how un-intelligible they are making the entire mix.

Cutting low end on guitars does 3 things.

Overall mix tighter

Guitars more distinct in mix

Bass more distinct in mix

MNAirHead · #13 05-08-2011, 11:24 PM

Set your band sound from 10 meters away from stage.. then blend it to work with the rest of the band.

walterw · #14 05-09-2011, 12:01 AM

the real problem is all the guitar players who do the same thing, set their tone to sound "huge" by itself, meaning a full-spectrum sound with lots of highs and lows. try to play with them, and your low end is fighting for room with all the stupid guitar rumble.

dbhokie · #15 05-09-2011, 08:01 AM

If you have a decent PA (especially if you are running a powered sub), then just run the guitars through a LPF, and the bass through a HPF, that gives each instrument more room to become their own.

kramerj · #16 05-09-2011, 08:25 AM

Line 6 and other companies make nice wireless systems. If you walk around the room, a wireless can help you hear how the bass sounds in the mix and make appropriate adjustments during the setup or gig. Mine is very new so I've only had a chance to use it during rehearsals. It has been an eye-opener. The smooth parallel setting on my Sterling 4H didn't sound very potent twenty feet in front of the band---and the more snarly series setting cut through perfectly without sounding honky from that distance. Granted, a band will sound different from different parts of the room, and the presence of warm bodies will also affect tone---but at least you can get some sense of your sound with wireless to compare with what you hear right in front of the amp.