Sound rant with my band and past bands

slaps76 · #1 08-06-2011, 08:17 PM

Thursday night, when setting up I had a bad cable that I didn't have a replacement for, so I couldn't use my rig, I DI'd straight through the board after my pedals.

I could hear myself in the monitors ok, and was coming a little out of the sub, however wanted to check how I sounded from out front...so during the breakdown of American Girl where one of the guitars is kind of dropped out, and I'm hitting higher notes, I stood right in front of a main and literally heard NOTHING. I told my lead guitarist, who runs the sound from stage. This was the first set...nothing changed rest of the night. Some videos of the show went up and I'm not in the mix at all. So this just leads me to believe in my current band, the only bass I'm hearing on past live clips is through my stage rig.

Of course, you can hear lead guitar for days. And of course, every gig he creeps his volume up as the night goes on. I make it a point to play with my bass at full volume from the start so i resist that temptation. We did talk after the gig, and he seemed pretty adamant on 'fixing' this for future gigs, so it's not like he's a jerk who doesn't care or listen.

Last cover band I was in, the rhythm guitarist did sound. His philosophy was the bass is pretty much only a subwoofer instrument. He's another story though, pretty much as bright as a bag of sand.

Any similar situations? How you guys handle it?

HolmeBass · #2 08-06-2011, 08:20 PM

Try hiring a sound man, preferably a bassist?

slaps76 · #3 08-06-2011, 08:24 PM

We don't really need to hire anyone. We own a pretty nice sound system for what we do, and it's fairly easy to set up, ect. Occasionally, his cousin does do sound for us, but I'd rather not have to pay anyone. I think moving forward it will be much better, but it just seems like so many people out there, including non-bassist musicians, really don't get that bass needs to come through the mix just like a guitar would.

TimmyP · #4 08-07-2011, 02:39 AM

You've had nothing but bandmates who can't mix, yet don't think you need to hire someone to mix?

spaz21387 · #5 08-07-2011, 02:52 AM

which is why you need a sound guy who can mix... I had a guitarist who always thought i was too loud even though he was on of those who thought that his amp had to be cranked to sound right. I fixed that problem by bringing my 6x10 over and cranking it so loud it over powered his little line 6 2x12 combo and the drums and pa. Then said look we can all turn down to reasonable levels. Or I can continue to overpower everything you choose.... That stopped right there ha

Never_grew_up · #6 08-07-2011, 09:42 AM

My housepainter's not a very good mechanic, and my mechanic's not a very good housepainter. Running sound from the stage is a crapshoot at best. Since he's standing somewhat near your bass amp he may be hearing/feeling a lot of bass on stage and so thinks there's plenty of bass 'in the mix'. Your solutions are
- Get a good wireless unit for yourself and the guitar player so you can both stand out in the house during soundcheck and agree on levels.
- Get someone else out in the house to guide/coach you on levels on stage and in the mix (like maybe a sound person).
How simple or complicated your sound equipment is shouldn't be the only reason to hire/not hire someone to mix for you.

**jmattbassplaya** · #7 08-07-2011, 09:57 AM

A lot of guitarists seem to believe that bass shouldn't be coming through a PA. I don't know why that is, but in my experiences most won't consider adding it until every other instrument is already in it. IME, guitar is the last thing that should be added because it's easiest to hear without PA support.

cableguy · #8 08-07-2011, 10:09 AM

Guitarist who run sound from the stage. That's a thread all by itself. Most (not all)guitarist are natorious for being too loud and/or bumping up their volume through the night. When that person is also in charge of the whole mix out front......Bad things brother, bad things. Sounds like you either need to hire a soundman or get a amp that can outdrive the mains. I would much rather make less and know I don't need to worry about the sound out front.

slaps76 · #9 08-07-2011, 10:51 AM

All valid points. I'm hoping the last gig drove it home with him...however if I needed to, I could definitely overpower anyone else on stage ha...my Carvin B1500 is usually set at "2."

carl h. · #10 08-07-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slaps76

All valid points. I'm hoping the last gig drove it home with him...however if I needed to, I could definitely overpower anyone else on stage ha...my Carvin B1500 is usually set at "2."

If you bring spare cables.

cableguy · #11 08-07-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carl h.

If you bring spare cables.

point to Carl H.

A couple back-up cables are priceless when you need them. And yea that B1500 could bury the guitarist. Very nice amp!

ggunn · #12 08-07-2011, 11:14 AM

My band has to mix from the stage a lot. One thing that has really helped is that we record every gig. I have a Roland Edirol digital recorder that does a pretty decent job. After the gig we listen to the recording and critique the performance and the mix.

Sleeping Giant · #13 08-08-2011, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slaps76

Last cover band I was in, the rhythm guitarist did sound. His philosophy was the bass is pretty much only a subwoofer instrument.

I know that attitude too well. Our guitarist says it doesn't matter if the bass amp is hidden out of sight because the audience will still hear it. All they will hear is a rumbling bottom end with no phrasing, tonality or rhythm.

Getting the volume levels down onstage can give a really nice mix. Not too quiet otherwise you lose energy. The thing is that when one member of the band is far too loud everyone else has to increase volume just to hear themselves.
This can be very detrimental to the singer who relies on monitors and they are already maxed out.

teleharmonium · #14 08-08-2011, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

A lot of guitarists seem to believe that bass shouldn't be coming through a PA. I don't know why that is, but in my experiences most won't consider adding it until every other instrument is already in it. IME, guitar is the last thing that should be added because it's easiest to hear without PA support.

As a guy who is also a gigging guitarist, I can tell you exactly why that is - most bass players are already too loud just with their amp on stage.

And if you run them through the PA and explain to them that now that they are going through the PA, they can turn down their amp to reduce the stage volume so people can hear each other better on stage, they mumble something which they mean to be taken as an explanation or excuse, or turn down and then turn right back up again in 90 seconds.

It's a rare (rock/pop/funk) musician that can overcome the tendency to be too loud. This is just as true for bassists as it is for drummers and guitarists. In order to do that, it requires that the player listens to the group sound rather than their own sound, and has somewhat objective criteria as to what the music should sound like for their style.

In the world of gigging musicians who play a rock band instrument, I'm guessing it's about 1 out of every 50 who succeed at this. If you find somebody like that, do everything you can to hold on to them. If they move to Nebraska, you should seriously consider following them.

Never_grew_up · #15 08-08-2011, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slaps76

All valid points. I'm hoping the last gig drove it home with him...however if I needed to, I could definitely overpower anyone else on stage ha...my Carvin B1500 is usually set at "2."

It's not (or shouldn't be) about who's louder/loudest, but about everything sitting where it needs to in the mix. If you start a volume war all that happens is everyone gradually gets louder and no one can hear themselves.

You need someone that everyone in the band trusts to be the sound referee out in the house. Friends that come to hear you play won't necessarily be honest because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. At my last gig the same buddy that told me the guitar was too loud and drowning out the bass & vocals told the guitar player the bass was too loud but our harmonies sounded great. Wha?

MNAirHead · #16 08-08-2011, 08:54 AM

EVERY time I hear a thread about bands running self-sound I ALWAYS suggest ONE single mix exactly the same as the mains.... having separate mains and monitors just asks for issues

same goes if running iem

its wiser for a self-produced band to have a single mix with everyone di...and learn to hear themselves.

when subbing I've many times heard them turn me 100% off... since IEM these gigs, I'm normally clueless to what's happening outside

----

IF running sound from stage and you have goofball idiots who will not IEM, the mix should be set from midroom (on a wireless) then have a rule NOBODY is allowed to touch ANY knobs.

You guys do sound like a prospect for a paid sound pro

MNAirHead · #17 08-08-2011, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Never_grew_up

It's not (or shouldn't be) about who's louder/loudest, but about everything sitting where it needs to in the mix. If you start a volume war all that happens is everyone gradually gets louder and no one can hear themselves.

You need someone that everyone in the band trusts to be the sound referee out in the house. Friends that come to hear you play won't necessarily be honest because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. At my last gig the same buddy that told me the guitar was too loud and drowning out the bass & vocals told the guitar player the bass was too loud but our harmonies sounded great. Wha?

This rarely works... someone inside the band should be setting the blend from a wirelesss mid room.

slaps76 · #18 08-08-2011, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Never_grew_up

It's not (or shouldn't be) about who's louder/loudest, but about everything sitting where it needs to in the mix. If you start a volume war all that happens is everyone gradually gets louder and no one can hear themselves.

I know that...now. I used to turn way up out of ignorance, but I don't want to drown anyone out and now have a much better understanding of the whole sound thing now.

ggunn · #19 08-08-2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

This rarely works... someone inside the band should be setting the blend from a wireless mid room.

And how are they supposed to be listening to this device? If they are on stage playing in the band, there is no way that they can listen to headphones (or whatever) from a device out in the middle of the room and separate that sound from everything that's going on around them.

Never_grew_up · #20 08-08-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggunn

And how are they supposed to be listening to this device? If they are on stage playing in the band, there is no way that they can listen to headphones (or whatever) from a device out in the middle of the room and separate that sound from everything that's going on around them.

I think he means someone (guitar, bass) on a wireless rig so they can walk out into the house & hear the mix.