A soundman's rant to younger players.

[fokof]

As some of you may already know , I'm a bass player wich also acts as a soundman. It's a 50/50 thing in my case.
I've learned over the years that one job brings a lot to the other , playing bass brings me the ears , and the understanding of the role of each instrument etc....
With doin sound , It gave to the bass player in me the importance of arrangements and personal Tone and how to try to "blend" in a mix as a player.

I play bass for 30 years (29 as fretless player) and am doin sound professionaly for 20 years now.

Each year for the last 12 , I do a soundman gig on an outside Jazz festival , it's a 15 minutes soundcheck , headphone only soundcheck for me , monitor check, with a 30 000-50 000 people type of gig.

I had +-50 bass players this year , and I had to do Extreme EQing on all bass players except maybe 5.
Those 5 were mostly the best players /more experimented I should say.
(I had a PM4000 and an XL200 board for those who wonder about the quality of the EQ I had , and an MSL4 kit)
This wasn't the case a couple of years back.

What's up with you guys ??????

A tip for younger bass players; if you have any occasion to mix bands from time to time , do it ,live or at home ( if your reference has some low end ! )
It will give you a better picture of your sound and how it needs to "fit" in your band's mix.

Rant over.

[Phalex]

I get what you're saying, and you'd love me and my P, but what is the root of the issue? Do kids these days just insist on bringing stomp boxes, or are the controls on their active basses set to annoyingly trebly output?

What do the youngsters need to do to make the soundguy's job easier?

I always just send a dry signal from my bass and let the sound guy do with it what he will.

[theunknowndude]

Originally Posted by fokof

As some of you may already know , I'm a bass player wich also acts as a soundman. It's a 50/50 thing in my case.
I've learned over the years that one job brings a lot to the other , playing bass brings me the ears , and the understanding of the role of each instrument etc....
With doin sound , It gave to the bass player in me the importance of arrangements and personal Tone and how to try to "blend" in a mix as a player.

I play bass for 30 years (29 as fretless player) and am doin sound professionaly for 20 years now.

Each year for the last 12 , I do a soundman gig on an outside Jazz festival , it's a 15 minutes soundcheck , headphone only soundcheck for me , monitor check, with a 30 000-50 000 people type of gig.

I had +-50 bass players this year , and I had to do Extreme EQing on all bass players except maybe 5.
Those 5 were mostly the best players /more experimented I should say.
(I had a PM4000 and an XL200 board for those who wonder about the quality of the EQ I had , and an MSL4 kit)
This wasn't the case a couple of years back.

What's up with you guys ??????

A tip for younger bass players; if you have any occasion to mix bands from time to time , do it ,live or at home ( if your reference has some low end ! )
It will give you a better picture of your sound and how it needs to "fit" in your band's mix.

Rant over.

where do you stand on how people want to 'fit' into their band mix on purpose tho,... in my instance I like a very middy tone as my drummer is crazy koud with plenty of double kick (so use mids to sit 'above' him) and crazy loud guitarist with distortion,... last gig the sound guy wanted to dial back in some low end and top end which I didn't have a problem with (he seems genuine in trying to get a great sound from us) but I have pedals for that (which I did run through and test with him)... for instance if I want low end I can step on my distortion which is pretty mid scooped, brings in huge bottom end instantly...

would you live with my arrangements or tell me that you need to do crazy EQ for the sound mix? Interested in your opinion with more experience here

note: I haven't heard any of the audio from the last gig, could be better tone from the soundman than what I have at rehearsal, not throwing a dig at any soundman at all, I figure 99.99% of the time they will make adjustments I can live with!

edit: I also only play fretless so have a lot of mids/different tone to begin with...

[Slowgypsy]

Originally Posted by fokof

I had +-50 bass players this year , and I had to do Extreme EQing on all bass players except maybe 5.
Those 5 were mostly the best players /more experimented I should say.

A question for you... for my continuing education... what type/kind of Extreme EQing did you have to do and why? What did the 5 "better" players do that made their sound "better" for you.

[rappa29]

Originally Posted by Phalex

I always just send a dry signal from my bass and let the sound guy do with it what he will.

Ditto. FOH gets a PRE EQ signal. Stage gets POST EQ. I'm a bass player, not a sound engineer, so I let them handle it out front. Plus I run a simple setup...bass->amp, no pedals, rack gear etc.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Phalex

Do kids these days just insist on bringing stomp boxes, or are the controls on their active basses set to annoyingly trebly output?

It was from trebly output to Über low end/no definition. It also depended on the style played. If you play reaggea , you need a "no definition" sound (please consider the quotes), if you do jazz fusion and take solos , the reaggea sound would not fit as well.

Originally Posted by Phalex

What do the youngsters need to do to make the soundguy's job easier?

My rant is ; try to have a knowledge of your band's mix.

Originally Posted by Phalex

I always just send a dry signal from my bass and let the sound guy do with it what he will.

There are many ways to have a bass sound but that is a very good one and the one I use as a bass player.

[JmJ]

How about some specific criticism? There's not a lot to learn from your rant. What was so great about the tones from the five guys you liked mixing?

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Slowgypsy

what type/kind of Extreme EQing did you have to do and why? What did the 5 "better" players do that made their sound "better" for you.

9 times out of 10 , it was a -12/-18db in the low end.
That is extreme to me. In a couple of cases if the board would have let me go to -24 , I would have.
For the upright players , same low shelf cut plus a boost in the high mids so the crowd could catch what pitch was played.

One of the problems (I think) is that when I receive a Post/processed signal , people take their bass amp as a reference , and as you all know , bass cabs are nor very good with reproducing low end , so to compensate , they boost too much the lows.


There is no receipe , what I say is ; be aware of your tone and how it fit in your band.

[AMJBASS]

I have worked on teaching my students this same thing. The sound of the whole band is more important than how you sound to yourself. You can't crank the low end on stage and expect it to sound great in the mix. I think more experienced players learn this by playing many gigs, and are more aware of the sound of the other players around them, and how their sound fits in.

[s_mcsleazy]

i have respect for good soundmen

if we can work on a agreement (i usually go into the club a few days befor the gig to work out what the desired sound is) and i usually end up getting a good sound. now theres the 20% who were a-holes and didnt actually know what they were doing but the truth is most soundmen are nice guys

[fokof]

Originally Posted by JmJ

How about some specific criticism?

Listen to your bass tone in a real , full range system so you know how to "dose" your low end.

Bass amps are very crappy at this.
Computer speakers are very crappy at this.

Originally Posted by JmJ

There's not a lot to learn from your rant.

I don't hold the holly thruth.
I could have told you about each specific players if you were beside me so I could explain each case and why , but like that , on the net , it is pure generalisation.

Originally Posted by JmJ

What was so great about the tones from the five guys you liked mixing?

They simply fitted very nicely on their band's mix.
One player that sounded perfect on a jazz standard bass/drum/piano trio would probably have been EQed as hell in a pop/rock setup.

One thing I could say , is that I'm GASing big time for a Yamaha silent bass .......

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by rappa29

Ditto. FOH gets a PRE EQ signal. Stage gets POST EQ. I'm a bass player, not a sound engineer, so I let them handle it out front. Plus I run a simple setup...bass->amp, no pedals, rack gear etc.

+1. That's what I do.

And....I am a sound engineer. But that doesn't mean I know what needs to be done in the FOH mix while I am on stage.

Every venue, collection of musicians, etc. is a different set of variables that the AE is working with.

My view?: "Here's a PRE EQ signal dude, do what you need to do."

[Codymb]

Ok, I get what you're saying, and I sympathize, I really do. But I also must say that perhaps the tone these guys have might be ideal for the sound of their band and it would be irresponsable of you to try to change that. I constantly have this battle with sound guys, I have two main tones that I try to achieve, one being a warm P bass kind of sound that sits in the mix and the second tone that has an exagerated high end that is supposed to pop out. I do this with an EQ pedal that I set with the highs and mids boosted and a bit of a volume boost. I use that tone for touch style parts, which in my band is a crucial part of our sound. My problem is, before each gig, I tell the sound guy that I have to have MY tone or the band won't sound right, just trust me. And of course, about 80% of the time, I get on stage to find out that they have EQed my sound so that it blends in to their liking and then when I play the touch style parts it comes out as this aweful, muddy, mess. And I'm left just shaking my head. If you want to talk about bassists making your job harder I can talk to you about sound guys ruining the sound of my band. If you ask me, a sound guys job is to make a band sound as good coming through a PA as they do at home, not to change a bands sound to their own liking.

[Kirkowitz]

Originally Posted by fokof

9 times out of 10 , it was a -12/-18db in the low end.
That is extreme to me. In a couple of cases if the board would have let me go to -24 , I would have.
For the upright players , same low shelf cut plus a boost in the high mids so the crowd could catch what pitch was played.

One of the problems (I think) is that when I receive a Post/processed signal , people take their bass amp as a reference , and as you all know , bass cabs are nor very good with reproducing low end , so to compensate , they boost too much the lows.


There is no receipe , what I say is ; be aware of your tone and how it fit in your band.

Wow. Interesting.
As an upright player, I can't imagine being able to get any volume at all on stage without feedback if the bass was boosted so much.... I always find myself cutting bass frequencies as volume goes up to avoid feedback.
If piezo pickups were involved, is it possible you were getting the sub frequency bleed from those? I know the frequency response is quite broad for piezo's- even though as you stated, many bass amps won't produce those extreme lows- but your PA can.....

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by fokof

As some of you may already know , I'm a bass player wich also acts as a soundman. It's a 50/50 thing in my case.
I've learned over the years that one job brings a lot to the other , playing bass brings me the ears , and the understanding of the role of each instrument etc....
With doin sound , It gave to the bass player in me the importance of arrangements and personal Tone and how to try to "blend" in a mix as a player.

I play bass for 30 years (29 as fretless player) and am doin sound professionaly for 20 years now.

Each year for the last 12 , I do a soundman gig on an outside Jazz festival , it's a 15 minutes soundcheck , headphone only soundcheck for me , monitor check, with a 30 000-50 000 people type of gig.

I had +-50 bass players this year , and I had to do Extreme EQing on all bass players except maybe 5.
Those 5 were mostly the best players /more experimented I should say.
(I had a PM4000 and an XL200 board for those who wonder about the quality of the EQ I had , and an MSL4 kit)
This wasn't the case a couple of years back.

What's up with you guys ??????

A tip for younger bass players; if you have any occasion to mix bands from time to time , do it ,live or at home ( if your reference has some low end ! )
It will give you a better picture of your sound and how it needs to "fit" in your band's mix.

Rant over.

Rant? Yes. I agree with that.

Questions:
-Headphone-only soundcheck and you're judging a bass player's sound from this perspective only?
-What amps were used?
-What mix of DI/cab existed? Or was it straight DI?
-Any consideration of the connection between, being young, not being able to afford a great amp/setup, and their sound?
-You're judging sound and players based on a "guerilla mixing" festival situation?
-Any upright basses used? Any recognition that upright bass is generally very challenging to amplify, mic, eq, particularly, live, in comparision to electric bass?

But a few variables here which I think are important to consider, but the details of which have not been articulated...

[Joe Nerve]

I've played probably 1500 gigs in my life, and at least half of them had sound people doing their thing. IMO a good sound person trusts the band to do what they do, and then makes the sound kick butt by doing what they do. End of story. I leave them alone, and they leave me alone. A tiny bit more or less stage volume is all I think I should ever be hearing from an experienced and good sound person.

When a sound person tries to push on me what THEY think my sound should be, or how THEY think I should be sitting in the mix, then I think they're overstepping their boundaries. You saying that only 5 out of +-50 players knew what they were doing has me thinking that the fault might lie on the opposite side of the stage than you're thinking. Then again, we all like to believe that we're right in instances like this, much the same as I believe I'm right here in this post right now.

If a sound person ever lectured me on re-equing my bass after or during a gig I'd listen, I'd take into consideration what they said, I'd thank them, but I would definitely also think they had quite a bit to learn themselves. If I were doing sound at a gig you were playing and I told you (based on my preferences) that you needed to radically change your EQ because you weren't fitting in the mix I'm going to guess you'd roll your eyes and ignore me. I'm certain there's been a sound guy or 2 that's thought exactly what your OP says when you're out there on stage.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Codymb

Ok, I get what you're saying, and I sympathize, I really do. But I also must say that perhaps the tone these guys have might be ideal for the sound of their band and it would be irresponsable of you to try to change that.

When the band practice in their room with a EON kit and with a 4X10 cab , I'm sure they get a sound they like and want that sound to be reproduced.
But in reality , when they get on my stage with EDIT:12 X 18" subs and XXX watt PA , thing are different than in the practice room.

That's why I say ; just be conscious of your tone.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

-Headphone-only soundcheck and you're judging a bass player's sound from this perspective only?

Good question
It's a phone check but the real soundcheck is done one the first song , when the PA opens.
The phone check for me , with the time I have , is mostly gain structure , and place everything equal , The fine tuning job (Kick/bass) is happening in the first song.
Also , I have done 1000+ shows that way , so I have a good idea in the phone even if the PA is off.
Experience.

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

-What amps were used?

Crown on Meyer subs
The stage sound doesn't pass over a 10Kw kit.

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

-What mix of DI/cab existed? Or was it straight DI?

It was different , depending on the player.
I prefer DI but use when when obvious or if the Player asks for it

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

-Any consideration of the connection between, being young, not being able to afford a great amp/setup, and their sound?

Being young yes , but it is not money related.
You can have a Sh** load of gear and sound like Sh**
2 of the best sounding guys I had didn't have amps.

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

-You're judging sound and players based on a "guerilla mixing" festival situation?

Yes , it's the best way to see if your tone fits IMHO.
When you have a 3 hour soundcheck , any soundman can make any tone happen (or almost )
In a plug and play situation , if your tone suck , the FOH guy will have to work on it instead of mixing the show.

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

-Any upright basses used? Any recognition that upright bass is generally very challenging to amplify, mic, eq, particularly, live, in comparision to electric bass?

Yes it is very hard. As an upright bass player too , I take great pride in the upright sound.
Very challenging.

[LowDown Hal]

Originally Posted by fokof

when they get on my stage with 30 X 18" subs and 100K watt PA , thing are different than in the practice room.

WOW, 30 18" subs and 100,000 watts

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

You saying that only 5 out of +-50 players knew what they were doing has me thinking that the fault might lie on the opposite side of the stage than you're thinking. .................... If I were doing sound at a gig you were playing and I told you (based on my preferences) that you needed to radically change your EQ because you weren't fitting in the mix I'm going to guess you'd roll your eyes and ignore me. I'm certain there's been a sound guy or 2 that's thought exactly what your OP says when you're out there on stage.

I'm mostly talking about un-experienced or less experienced players. I'm not talking about "Bar scene" either.
This year , the series of concert I had happened to be less experienced band/players.

I only talk about the sound/EQing if the band's asks.
And on very rare occasions I ask the players to change anything. I have a big respect for that , being a musicien myself. I will only ask if I'm limited by the equipement , like if a guitar player have too much reverb , I can't remove any , so I'll ask.
I never ask anything out of a bass player. ( very rarely)

As a player , I always ask if everything is OK while doin' the soundcheck and between sets.
If the soundman thinks my tone Su** as* and he doesn't tell me , I will assume that he has the capacity to do a good job with the equipement he has or else, he would ask me to change stuff in my sound.
Usually , they only ask me to lower what I send them (even if I send everything to 0db )