For the soundmen/bassists Cymbal Micing Question

[nasum33]

At the risk of being completely off topic; I have a question for the soundguys on the forum.

While playing a gig a few months back I noticed that the soundperson was micing the cymbals from below.

Has anyone ever seen this and what mic would you employ to accomplish such a task.

I tend to be a curious person and it's kinda been bugging me.

Thanks

[kedo]

It's not that common (at least that I have seen) to mic all cymbals from below. It eats up channels, and is more work. Usually I will see a ride cymbal with its own dedicated mic, if anything.

The practice allows for a very precise placement of cymbals in the mix, both tonally and in he stereo field. I just think it's overkill, though.

A small diaphragm condensor would best suit this application. SM 81, AKG 460/451, etc...

[prd004]

Originally Posted by kedo

It's not that common (at least that I have seen) to mic all cymbals from below. It eats up channels, and is more work. Usually I will see a ride cymbal with its own dedicated mic, if anything.

The practice allows for a very precise placement of cymbals in the mix, both tonally and in he stereo field. I just think it's overkill, though.

A small diaphragm condensor would best suit this application. SM 81, AKG 460/451, etc...

+1 plus you don't get the sound of the stick hitting the cymbal from below, not to mention I find the mics to be WAYYYYYY to close to the toms and for me it ruins the tom mix, but that's just me! There is no right or wrong answer and drums are the most difficult instrument to mic.

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by prd004

+1 plus you don't get the sound of the stick hitting the cymbal from below, not to mention I find the mics to be WAYYYYYY to close to the toms and for me it ruins the tom mix, but that's just me! There is no right or wrong answer and drums are the most difficult instrument to mic.

+1. You said it was at a gig - as in NOT in the studio. Maybe the sound guy just wanted to keep the mics down and out of the way as much as possible. Whenever I set up overhead drum mics, the first thing that happens is somebody hits one of them and knocks it out of position - or knocks it on the floor. 60% of the time it is the drummer himself, and 40% of the time it is another band member walking over to talk to the drummer.

If time, money, gear and available channels are no object in a studio setting, I mic everything from above and below just to give myself more to work with when I mix. However, for a live gig, the fine points of micing above or below don't make much difference in the final mix, so I tend to do whatever is easiest, less obtrusive, fastest to change over for the next band, etc.

[KeithAlanK]

I feel that mic'ing cymbals from below is easier, in that you can use smaller stands or clamps instead of boom stands, but it doesn't sound as good.
When mic'd from above, the cymbals themselves physically block the sound from the toms, or in the case of the hihat, the snare.
And hihats almost always sound better when you can get the stick sound, so again above is better.
But in the end, there are no rules, and from below is better than no mics at all.

[fokof]

I like to hear the stick hitting the cymbals , so it's always been on top. I also prefer the ringing from the top.

Appart from the visual from the room , I don't see any advantages to mike from below.
Maybe if you WANT a different sound ......

[BigMac5]

Originally Posted by kedo

Usually I will see a ride cymbal with its own dedicated mic, if anything.

I always wondered whu the High-Hats get a mic, but the ride doesn't the majority of the time.

[BluesBear]

Back in the '90s when I was also doing commercial sound I invested in a Zildjian ZMC-10 Cymbal Microphone System. It came with it's own small mics that snapped onth the cymbal stand BELOW the cymbal. They worked great.

However, I only used it on crash or crash/ride cymbals as I still preferred mic'ing the primary ride cymbal(s) from above especially if the drummer used nylon tip sticks.
When using real mics (dynamic of course I've NEVER close mic a crash cymbal with a condenser) I often mic'ed the crash cymbals from the bottom (close to the stand-about 4" to 6" away from the inside of the bell) because it's very difficult to close mic a crash from above because of the extreme range of motion when struck hard. Also it kept my microphones safely protected from stick hits by wild drummers.

For the Hi-Hat I placed a small condenser mic off axis about two inches from the edge of the cymbals on the opposite side from the impact area (+ or - 45 degrees).

That's how I did it. I got lots of work and made lots of money doing it. YMMV after all there are so many right ways to run sound. Just like making music, the results are all that matters.

[KingRazor]

We just use a pair of overhead mics for the cymbals. But they're so loud acoustically that the mics aren't really necessary.

[jmac]

SM81 is an industry standard for cymbals. There are other good choices, but the SM81 is the choice for me.

I've never mic'd under the cymbals. But if it sounded good then it's ok to do it.

[D.A.R.K.]

i've mic'd under cymbals before.
super clean look, takes the stands out of the way for better sight lines between musicians, and is ideal for video projections.
i've used shure ksm27's, ksm 32, sennheiser 614, shure sm81...
you do have to find the right spot, and check phase just like overheads.
i do prefer overheads, not just to get cymbals but to get a full kit sound. first time i ran into this was mixing openers for red hot chili peppers/ foo fighters tour years ago.
dave rat was doing under micing with shure ksm's and explained the reasoning to me.
just did it again mixing the phantogram tour this past fall/ winter.
the drummer for the tour was a wild basher, i tried overhead once and he nailed one of my mics,
so under they went for the rest of the tour... much safer that way.

[Jimbob Jones]

On the Zoo TV tour, U2 mic'd the cymbals from below with 57's.

The mix on the DVD sounds great...

But I'm still stuck in 1982, where the 57 was the answer to everything.

[BluesBear]

Originally Posted by Jimbob Jones

But I'm still stuck in 1982, where the 57 was the answer to everything.

It still is. Sure, there are other good answers nowadays, but the SM57/545/548 family will always be good, solid, all around performers.
Every sound engineer should have a dozen handy for whatever needs arise.

[testing1two]

I haven't done any under-cymbal mic tricks in ages mostly because the commonly used mics were too large or didn't have enough off-axis rejection to wash out the toms.

I wouldn't mind trying these: http://heilsound.com/pro/products/pr31bw/

[lowfreq33]

Tried it, didn't really like it.