Spec me a PA system for a praise band

[Liko]

My church is formalizing the informal praise group we've had for a couple of years now; the group will now lead service on the first Sunday of each month.

One of the main concerns has been the blend and balance of the group. Currently we have unamped acoustics that fight at times to be heard over two electrics. We also have a drummer, I'm training up a bassist (I'm the best bassist in our group, but I'm also the second-best guitarist and as such am needed to fill in a skinny-string slot), and almost everyone sings, so balancing all that when you cannot really control the levels of the drums or acoustics is frustrating.

The other half of our woes is recording. The problem is not that we can't; the problem is that currently our system, which is the church's main PA and exists mostly for vocal augmentation, not instrument amplification, is based around microphones; therefore, when recording the service, the praise group is virtually all vocals with no instruments. The existing church board is also getting rather full (16 mono channels go rather quickly); it simply cannot support adding an input for each instrument as-is.

The solution to both problems, or at least the one I'm pitching, is to have our own PA that everything will plug in to. Other solutions include the status quo, and to upgrade the entire church PA. The main advantage I'm pitching is that a second system would be portable so we could hold services practically anywhere big enough, including outside. It would also be cheaper than an upgrade of the entire PA system (much of which is built into the sanctuary). More of interest to our praise group itself is that a second PA will allow us to control our mix, and not the soundman. I love him to death, he's been a sound engineer for decades and I've learned a lot by shadowing him as he works the board, but it shows; he's a knob-fiddler and hard of hearing after 20 years in the sound booth, so we're constantly trying to hear ourselves in the mix and feeding back while he's listening to what's heading to tape and adjusting so THAT sounds good.

SO, lengthy introduction over, I've been through two Guitar Centers and their website, and haven't found the perfect setup. So, thought I'd put the shout out here. I need suggestions for a PA system that I can pitch to the Worship and Music committee.

Must-haves:
- At least 12 inputs. Most consoles allow XLR or line-in for each channel, but the breakdown if important is:
- 2-4 vocal mikes
- 5 instrument inputs - 2 will almost certainly be banana plugs, the rest are a coin toss depending on whether the input's from a DI/mike or an effects loop send
- One stereo line input for a keyboard
- at least two ambient/drum mikes
- Simplicity; powered mixer unit is almost a must-have but a portable rack with seperate board and power amp, if inexpensive, will do. Small knobs/controls must be set and forget.
- Portability; if I'm going to sell that as an advantage it better be true. 80-lb mains that you need a van to transport do NOT qualify.
- Reasonable cost; If it looks like we get a lot of goodies for our money it'll be an easier sell even if more expensive than some other option; regardless, I do not think I can pitch a base system (mixer, amp, mains, mons) that costs more than $2000.
- At least 150W per side. This isn't just vocal support; we're plugging everything in, so the amp has to handle it.

Nice-to-haves:
- Grouping. This is an ideal, as most mixers are either too expensive or otherwise too complex, but if we can adjust vocals vs instruments with two sliders instead of 6 while keeping overall layout relatively simple it'd be great. 2 groups is probably all we can hope for.
- On-off. Press a button and the channel's out of the mix; much easier than cutting out and then re-setting a slider.
- Stereo monitor channel - if I want to hear my vocals predominantly and so does the other main singer, it makes sense to pan mine right and hers left. If that can be done seperately from the mains without bridging the power amp, so much the better, but keep simplicity in mind; monitor balance and level by channel is probably the max. Dual stereo monitors is overkill on many levels.
- Stereo line-out. Not a must-have, especially as the board with the recording equipment only has mono inputs, but this is probably one feature that will definitely make one or two setups stand out.

Don't-wants:
- RCA inputs (red-white). Most have one and we'd probably find a use for it sometime, but when four or even six of a mixer's channels are tied up in stereo RCA jacks, which are useless for anything else, I start to think "truth in advertising" as to channel count.
- Effects. Reverb, hall, and chorus-type effects may at some point have a use, but it will probably not affect our decision.
- More than 500W per side. Even that's probably more than we will ever need; don't wanna blow the old folks out of the pews, and at around 2000 sqft. the sanctuary's not gargantuan (at least compared to some of the mega-churches in town).
- More than 20 channels. We could probably find some use for it, but such mixers usually (a) aren't powered and (b) are cumbersome to move and set up.

The closest I've come is the Yamaha EMX 5014/16 powered mixers. They have enough channels, and while it's about as complex as I would ever want to get, most of the knobwork is pretty set-and-forget. It also has amp-scaling; we can run it at 500W per side or pull it back to 200W or even 75W per side if we want to. I'd run that with two JBL powered monitors and two or four JBL or Harbinger 2x12" 2-way mains, and probably be set on the main components for about $1600-1800.

[Stumbo]

You might want to check out: http://churchsound.prosoundweb.com/

Many pro audio manufacturers have good tutorials on live sound / pro audio techniques and applications. These are free on their websites. Try Mackie, Allen & Heath, Shure, JBL, ElectroVoice, Audio Tecnicha, AKG, etc.

You should also checkout the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. It was written a long time ago but is still a good beginner's reference book. http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...230600,00.html

There's also a guide available for Worship sound systems:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...RODUCT,00.html

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Liko

The closest I've come is the Yamaha EMX 5014/16 powered mixers. They have enough channels, and while it's about as complex as I would ever want to get, most of the knobwork is pretty set-and-forget.

That is a great board.

[Stumbo]

Something like this. YOu may want to check your local craigslist and see what's available locally.

At ZZsounds
------------
$800Yamaha 5014 $800
500 2 powered Fender floor monitors 500
500 2 Peavey PV115 mains 500
200 shipping and misc
-----
$2,000

ZzSounds
----------
$1387 Yamaha 5014c, 2-S115v mains, 2-30 ft cables, 2 speaker stands $1,387
500 2 Fender powered floor monitors est 500
123 Shipping,Misc 123
-------
$2,000

[WayneP]

balancing all that when you cannot really control the levels of the drums or acoustics is frustrating.

Require your drummer to play with quiet sticks. I don't know if that's the correct name for them, but they're several thin sticks strapped together. They're the ticket for situations like yours. My son uses them at his church, and the drummer in my band does, too. Don't even need a drum shield.

The closest I've come is the Yamaha EMX 5014/16 powered mixers.

Forget powered mixers. They're tinker-toys. The chances of that Yamaha getting a true 500 watts per channel is practically zero.
Are you averse to getting used gear?

* You could eBay a 16-channel Mackie 1604 VLZ for under $400. It has 4 subgroups and a sweepable midrange for each channel, among other features.

* Last year I eBay'd an 80s vintage Ramsa amplifier, 250 watts/channel for a mere $100 delivered. Heavy-duty, top-quality stuff, built (and weighs) like a friggin' tank.

* A Rane PE-17 or Symetrik 551 parametric for feedback control - I recently eBay'd a 551 for under $150.

So allowing that you might not get stuff quite as cheap - $750 for electronics, that leaves you over $1000 for your speakers.

A smart shopper can clean house on eBay. Just look for stuff that's been in installations or studios rather than gigged.

Your bass player will need a good amp; a system like this (with no subs) won't work well for bass.

I really think it makes more sense to put the money into your main house system, unless it's beyond hope. You can eBay a Mackie SR24-4 for well under $1000. The only jam-up might be if your snake doesn't have enough capacity...

The other half of our woes is recording. The problem is not that we can't...

Why are you recording P&W? I hope you're not selling those recordings - it's illegal. Copyright laws and all that...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

[bassman1185]

Don't sell yourselves short on the power, ESPECIALLY if you are planning on doing outdoor events. For a setup the size of what you're talking about, you're going to want WAY more than 150 watts per side. I would say that the BARE minimum you're going to want to go with is about 500 watts per side into 4ohms. Remember, you can always turn a loud system down, but you can't turn a quiet system up.

Also, WayneP, the recording is probably for archiving purposes. Most churches keep records of their services. Plus, Christian worship artists generally use a different copyright system called CCLI (Christian Copyright Licensing International) that allows churches to use copyrighted material.

[Liko]

OK, I'm hearing that the Yamaha is a good mixer as powered mixers go, but I'm hearing that 500W/side probably won't do it. I understand arguments stemming from planned outside use, but for indoor use I still think 500W is plenty for what will mainly be acoustic amplification. The fact that we'll be plugging all the instruments in and micing the drummer is solely and completely for purposes of recording; neither the drummer nor any already amplified instrument (with the exception of the keyboard) needs further support. However, I will take a look at seperate power amps.

Originally Posted by WayneP

[font="Comic Sans MS"]

Require your drummer to play with quiet sticks. I don't know if that's the correct name for them, but they're several thin sticks strapped together. They're the ticket for situations like yours. My son uses them at his church, and the drummer in my band does, too. Don't even need a drum shield.

Oh, he uses brushes and rods (the proper name for "quiet sticks") most of the time. Our drummer's day job is as the percussion instructor for a middle school and high school in the area, and he tuned/adjusted the little beginner's kit donated to the church so it actually sounds like a decent drum set; trust me, this guy knows his way around a kit. However, rods both change the sound you get and are still too loud if he gets enthusiastic (which is the point; we formed the praise band because of concerns about "uninspiring worship"). Rods also are harder on drum skins.

Forget powered mixers. They're tinker-toys. The chances of that Yamaha getting a true 500 watts per channel is practically zero.
Are you averse to getting used gear?

If what you're trying to say is that 2 grand will not buy a new PA worth playing through, I might take it under consideration (Musician's Friend's complete PA setups with monitors, built around the 5016cf, are $2400-2500). If you're saying that a seperate power amp has its advantages, I would agree. What I do know is that I trust Yamaha to make a quality product, and if they say it's rated for 500W per side, I tend to believe them. I also know the venue, and that we are not trying to put on a rock concert here. We are trying to provide worship music, some of which is spoken over by the pastor. To drown him out defeats the purpose.

To answer your question, I personally am not adverse to buying used gear, and as the church operates solely on donations the council probably wouldn't mind either, as most of our newer sound equipment is donated. What I do see an issue with is the dynamic nature of the used gear market; you buy what other people are willing to sell at a price that both can live with. When buying something with church money requires issuing a purchase order, it simply isn't possible to go through the bureaucracy fast enough to still get the deal. Shopping for new gear allows us to budget for something that will still be there in a month or two if it takes that long to make the decision and allocate the money, and it is not unusual for such a decision to take that long.

You could eBay a 16-channel Mackie 1604 VLZ for under $400. It has 4 subgroups and a sweepable midrange for each channel, among other features.

That is a nice one; however, the emphasis is on live sound, not recording, so a "studio-quality" board is not my first choice. It will go on the list, however. I think that the CFX16 is probably the better buy in an unpowered mixer; cheaper new (leaving room to buy a power amp) and with similar 4-bus controls as the 1604VLZ, it would better suit our needs IMO. Now, I think I have been convinced to go with a seperate power amp; if nothing else, the modularity makes it easier to upgrade if it turns out everyone's right and 500W won't do it. Again, it will probably be new components only, because by the time the committee makes up their mind, the particular listing I would have gotten my price from will be LONG gone.

Your bass player will need a good amp; a system like this (with no subs) won't work well for bass.

Considering that when I do play bass, I pipe it through 4 10s with only about 300W behind it, and have absolutely no problems being heard (master volume's usually around 4 out of 10), and we're talking dual 12 or single 15" mains getting 200W more PER CAB than my entire rig has, forgive me if I'm a little incredulous at that remark. This is a praise group in a Lutheran church; people aren't going to be hollering and screaming over our offertory like they would at a concert (the most they'd do is clap in time), and we don't need (and don't want) bass that will shake people out of their seats. It sounds like if we really have to have that much bass, all we need is a mixer with a subwoofer output and we can, at our leisure, add an extra power amp and the subs.

I really think it makes more sense to put the money into your main house system, unless it's beyond hope. ... The only jam-up might be if your snake doesn't have enough capacity...

To put it into perspective: we already have quotes on rewiring and updating our sanctuary sound system for these purposes: $10,000. The speakers we'd be using as mains are 30 years old and designed to be used with a power amp that put out 100W IN TOTAL. Every foot of wire to those speakers would have to be replaced with higher-rated wire that will stand up to the next 30 years (the stuff currently in there is the same stuff you'd find behind your average shelf system). That's most of it. New board/amps, IF we only still needed the 16 inputs we have and only needed about 200W per side (quadrupling our current power), would be the cheap end of it as I'm sure you can imagine.

Adding our mix to the main board would first double the amount of inputs needed, second it would probably triple the amp power necessary (and may require even better speakers than we were quoted for), third, it may require upgrading the breaker box even further, and fourth, that increased power means a bigger electric bill regardless of whether the praise team is playing that Sunday or not (a 600W power amp draws about double that from the outlet, regardless of whether the amp is set to 1 or 10). This is why I'm making the pitch for a seperate PA; setting us up with our own equipment is a fraction of what would be needed to upgrade the built-in system to do the same thing, and being seperate, it can be controlled seperately.

Why are you recording P&W? I hope you're not selling those recordings - it's illegal. Copyright laws and all that...

Actually it isn't illegal, and no we're not selling them anyway. Bassman1185 pinned it; the CCLI, where the author has allowed reproduction under it, allows us more rights to the work than most copyright. Even without that, as a non-profit, if we have bought the music in sheet form, we can perform the work, sell tickets to that performance, record that performance, and distribute those recordings either at cost or free. We do the latter; some of our members are bedridden, in nursing homes, or even deployed to Iraq.

[WayneP]

Considering that when I do play bass, I pipe it through 4 10s with only about 300W behind it, and have absolutely no problems being heard (master volume's usually around 4 out of 10), and we're talking dual 12 or single 15" mains getting 200W more PER CAB than my entire rig has, forgive me if I'm a little incredulous at that remark.

It sounds like if we really have to have that much bass, all we need is a mixer with a subwoofer output and we can, at our leisure, add an extra power amp and the subs.

The issue isn't power or volume. It's frequency response. The problem is that a typical portable two-way PA speaker with a single 15" can't adequately support a bass guitar, because they fall like a brick below ~125 Hz. That's a full two oactaves above the fundamental of an open B on a 5-string bass. True, few bass cabinets can get down to 30-35 Hz, but plenty can get down to 40 Hz or close to it. Bottom line, the bass is going to sound anemic through any PA speaker in your price range.

Plus, relieve your PA of the bass and your 500 (or whatever) watts will go a lot further - i.e., you'll be able to get higher SPL levels from the system before distortion. Probably won't matter indoors, but it might outdoors.

Even without that, as a non-profit, if we have bought the music in sheet form, we can perform the work, sell tickets to that performance, record that performance, and distribute those recordings either at cost or free. We do the latter; some of our members are bedridden, in nursing homes, or even deployed to Iraq.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've done sound for many conferences and retreats with equipment from our church, where we recorded the keynote speaker's message and made it available for sale to those in attendance, and our music minister always told me that we couldn't record and sell any of the P&W. Based on what you said, I suppose issue was that the organization or ministry putting on the event didn't have a CCLI license.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

[1954bassman]

I would go with powered speakers, and In Ear monitors. Cheaper in the long run, and much easier to control feedback and tote around. Also much easier to get a good sound with no floor monitors to contend with.

[Ben-Jammin]

Originally Posted by WayneP

Thanks for clearing that up. I've done sound for many conferences and retreats with equipment from our church, where we recorded the keynote speaker's message and made it available for sale to those in attendance, and our music minister always told me that we couldn't record and sell any of the P&W. Based on what you said, I suppose issue was that the organization or ministry putting on the event didn't have a CCLI license.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

I believe then, tecnically, they can't (legally) include the live music in the service, either.