stacking bass and guitar cabs

[runmikeyrun]

Hey guys (and ladies),

I have (2) 4x12s in my rig. We have two guitarists who each play with a half stack. We were trying to come up with ideas on how to place the cabs at shows. I'm going to split mine wide left and right, but we were unsure if we should put a guitar 4x12 on top of each bass cab or put the guitar half stacks next to each bass 4x12. I think it will only matter if we're on an elevated stage or not- I wouldn't want guitar 4x12s on top of my cabs if the stage is already 2 or 3 feet off the ground anyways. I don't want the guitars going right over everyone's heads. If we're on the floor at the same level as the crowd I think having the guitar cabs up higher will help people hear them clearer. Not that they're quiet heads- they play with a 5150 and a Bogner Uberschall.

Most places we play have vocals-only PA systems, so they don't mic the bass or guitar. Quite a few are in houses or basements. What do you think, am I on the right track?

[testing1two]

Spacing your cabs wide is a recipe for phase cancellation. You would do better to stack them vertically so you can hear them better and subsequently not have to play so loud. The same is true of the guitar cabs. And when the stage volume becomes more manageable, the PA will sound that much better and your overall mix will improve.

[mboogiemanusa]

I have a 4/10 and 15/2x8 bass cabinets which I split and place both sides of the drums. We rarely bring out the 4x12 guitar cabs anymore unless the rare outdoor festival gig. Most bars and gigs we play ...that is just over kill. My guitarist's run Marshall 100w lead and Peavey 5150 heads into 1x12 or 2x12 cabinets depending on situation. We place these on top of the bass cab on each side of the drums......I also mic the guitar speakers with shure SM57's. We do this not really to increase the volume of the guitar so much but to spread the sound around the room better. Also can run a little guitar into monitors if needed. Works for us on small stages.

[runmikeyrun]

Testing- I get that, but the issue is the guitars and bass aren't miked through a PA. I'm more concerned if I stack the bass cabs that only people on one side of the stage will accurately hear the bass. If I just put the bass cabs closer together, like either side of the drum kit would that help eliminate phase cancellation?

Boogie- The venues will have one mic, two if we're lucky. We can't mic guitars because usually one vocal will be clipping the mixer as it is. I know what you're getting at though because I ran sound at a small venue with a smallish PA for a couple of years. I just put a hint of them in the FOH to balance things out. I was also dealing with (2) 2x15+tweeter cabs and an 800w amp. Most of these places have an old Peavey 4 ch powered mixer with about 200w. Unfortunately, bringing our own PA is out of the question.

[testing1two]

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

I get that, but the issue is the guitars and bass aren't miked through a PA. I'm more concerned if I stack the bass cabs that only people on one side of the stage will accurately hear the bass. If I just put the bass cabs closer together, like either side of the drum kit would that help eliminate phase cancellation?

Narrower spacing will change the problem but not eliminate it.

If you're worried about the audience, don't be. Bass frequencies are far less directional and will propagate just fine. Of course the bass will be slightly heavier on your side of the stage for the first few rows of fans but it will start to even out once you get 15 or 20' away from the stage.

If you're worried about your bandmates hearing you, I suggest a little bass in the monitors.

[testing1two]

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

I have (2) 4x12s in my rig. they play with a 5150 and a Bogner Uberschall.

What do you think, am I on the right track?

You're on the right track for hearing loss if you're not using ear plugs...seriously.

[mboogiemanusa]

Originally Posted by testing1two

You're on the right track for hearing loss if you're not using ear plugs...seriously.

I recommend downsizing your bass and guitar rigs especially if your playing small places with crappy PA's. 4x12's are just over kill for any venue that is not huge or outdoors. Try those monster guitar heads into 1 or 2 x 12 cab. Guitarists will be able to get monster tone without monster volume. Might even be able to hear some vocals over the din.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by runmikeyrun

Most of these places have an old Peavey 4 ch powered mixer with about 200w. Unfortunately, bringing our own PA is out of the question.

then that wall of cabs will be even worse for the overall mix, because the crowd will be watching a guy mouth words into a mic but won't hear him, and your drums will be nothing but snare and cymbals, which is just lame.

putting your cabs behind other players forces them to turn up to hear themselves over you, quickly creating a bad volume-wars death-spiral.

your best, fattest low end will happen when your cabs are right against each other. that causes their sub frequencies to add, becoming one big subwoofer; spreading them apart causes them to cancel, creating zones of "bass, no bass, bass" as you walk around the room.

keep it behind you; you'll hear it better, and be able to back it down a bit, and your guitar players will hear their cabs better, so they can turn down a bit, and then hey wow, i can hear the kick drum!

[runmikeyrun]

Originally Posted by testing1two

You're on the right track for hearing loss if you're not using ear plugs...seriously.

Yeah no doubt. Had enough of that over the years. I finally got a pair of the custom high fidelity ones made about 5 years ago. I wear them all the time.

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll see what I can do about getting people to turn down... probably won't happen!! lol.

[TimmyP]

Put the bass cabs together.

Sell the 4x12 guitar cabs and get 1x12s.

Then you can sell one of the bass cabinets.

Then you can sell the other bass cabinet and get a 2x10.

[Silas Stingy]

I have never played in a situation where splitting the bass cabs would have a benefit. If I don't have P.A support sometimes it's worth having 2x210s with one directed at the audience and one turned 90degrees stacked on top pointing into my ear. Keep the low end together.

[Ben Clarke]

If you really must have a bass cab on both sides, consider placing the bass cabs right up against the side walls, with the guitar cabs towards the center. This of course would only work if the side walls are close enough to the performance area.

You'd likely run into some funky lobes (hot spots right next to dead spots) particularly behind the speakers, but it may or may not be an issue depending on the specific dimensions of the room, and will be better than placement away from the side walls. You can also angle the speakers in towards the performance area for more direct sound @ center stage.

One thing to remember is that with small rooms and high SPL is that there's going to SO many lobes from various angles that it almost smooths it all out. Pack the room with a bunch of bodies and crank it up, and everything changes anyway.

[jtom86]

Running the bass cabs wide left and right is going to cause you all kinds of phase problems in the audience. If I were you I would ditch one of the cabs and run one right next to the drummer and have the guitars turn down. Remember that you can ALWAYS have too much of a good thing!