stingy soundmen who won't run DI

amos · #1 05-02-2008, 02:36 PM

I play at Dante's here in Portland about every month or two. I think we're working on a gig for the 13th of May right now. Anyway, they upgraded the subs there and it's a great place to play so long as you isolate your cab somehow, either with castors or some iso pad. However the sound guy who is usually there never wants to run a DI, and I lose a lot of high end. Suggestions?

This is the only place I've ever played where a soundguy says no to a DI. With my rig, a DI sounds better to my ears since my speakers are pretty transparent, there's not much of a reason to mike my cab.

Trevorus · #2 05-02-2008, 02:42 PM

You'll just have to reason with the soundguy without making him mad. Sometimes, that can be hard to do. Especially if he's dead-set against it.

Mushroo · #3 05-02-2008, 02:44 PM

I will make polite suggestions to the sound guy, but in the final analysis, he's the pro; he knows the room and the gear best. I try not to stress out about things I can't control.

Tenma4 · #4 05-02-2008, 02:56 PM

Easy fix. Lose the amp next time and show up with in-ear or a headphone amp and a DI. If I suspect something weird like that, I just leave the cab in the truck and ask for a mic cable w/phantom power to my SansAmp.

Jim Carr · #5 05-03-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenma4

...If I suspect something weird like that, I just leave the cab in the truck and ask for a mic cable w/phantom power to my SansAmp...

I really recommend against leaving gear in any vehicle during a gig, unless it is something
small and not visible, like a spare head in a car trunk.

To the OP: Did you ask the Dante's sound person to explain why a DI
was not going to happen? He/she might have been able to explain it
based on sound/gear issues, club volume policy, neighborhood
issues/noise ordinances, or whatever.

It does seem odd that you were apparently not given a brief explanation.

Stumpy · #6 05-03-2008, 08:25 AM

I generally bring my Thunder Rig with me to shows (WT800C, D410XLT, D210XST) and set everything up. Runs nice and I set a nice stage level. I have a mic cable over the stack (plugged into the DI) when the sound guy comes up I just hand it to him.
I really only have the issue of being too loud for the FOH. I just follow the soundman's instructions to turn down a little bit and that is about it.
After having issues at some clubs we now bring our soundman with us. We ask in advance and make sure that it is alright. We use their gear and patch in what we need (special effects, in-ear monitors, click, etc.)

Just My thoughts.

Tenma4 · #7 05-03-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

I really recommend against leaving gear in any vehicle during a gig, unless it is something
small and not visible, like a spare head in a car trunk.

Good point. I generally only use a 1x10 cab anyway. I built it and made it ugly as sin on purpose so it wouldn't appear tempting to anyone. Also since it's fairly small, it's easy to overlook. No one has to know that it sounds like heaven.

Ric5 · #8 05-03-2008, 09:03 AM

Usually soundmen prefer di ... I prefer to mike a cabinet with an sm57 and run that into the pa ... I have gone so far as to tell soundmen that my xlr is not working and tell them I had to mike a cab ...

Also soundmen usually prefer to get your signal pre eq and not post eq ... most bass players try to send a signal with too much bass to the subs which causes problems for the soundman ...

Jools4001 · #9 05-03-2008, 09:15 AM

Lets face it, whether you mike or DI, pre-eq or post-eq once the soundguy has got his feed the sound is no longer yours anyway. You may feel that you are losing high end detail but if the soundman doesn't want that high level detail he'll just eq it out on the desk anyway.

Deacon_Blues · #10 05-03-2008, 07:39 PM

What Jools said. Anyway, I'd be suspicious about a soundguy not allowing me to run my sound as I want to, or if he is tweaking it in a way I don't like it. It's my gig and it's my sound that he should reproduce to the PA as accurately as possible. I say this because I've met a lot of soundguys that have no clue what they're doing...

crazyguy832 · #11 05-04-2008, 12:37 AM

^^^
While this is true, at the same time... well... your sound may not sit well in the FOH. Whether it's the sound system, the acoustics of the building, or the fact that your sound just does not mesh with the band, the sound guy will probably end up changing somthing.

theshadow2001 · #12 05-04-2008, 03:34 PM

Maybe the soundman is slightly disgruntled and is sick of seeing bass players with huge rigs that play too loud and always ends up turning them off in the PA anyway because its messing with his mix and ends up just working the mix around whats coming off stage from the bass amp.

**baba** · #13 05-06-2008, 09:18 AM

This soundman is in the minority. They are usually insistent on using a DI instead of a mic. As others have said, they typically like to take the signal from the instrument before it hits the rig. I don't know where his logic is, but I wouldn't sweat it. You have to just assume he'll make it sound good out front since FOH is out of your hands, DI or not.

Dave Martin · #14 05-06-2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

What Jools said. Anyway, I'd be suspicious about a soundguy not allowing me to run my sound as I want to, or if he is tweaking it in a way I don't like it. It's my gig and it's my sound that he should reproduce to the PA as accurately as possible. I say this because I've met a lot of soundguys that have no clue what they're doing...

Sadly, I've also met a lot of musicians who have no idea what they're doing - especially when it comes to sound. Translating what you hear on stage to the rest of the room is NOT as simple as you seem to thing "Her should reproduce it in the PA as accurately as possible. " if it were, concert sound would be a lot better than it is.

Quite honestly, you have NO control over what the bass sounds like in the room - you can't hear what's going on out there, and making judgements about how you THINK the sound guy should work with what you give him is at best dangerous (and at worst, will make the sound guy soggy and hard to light).

BassmanAd · #15 05-06-2008, 09:44 AM

That is really unusual to mic the cab and not run a DI. What is the sound guy going to do if your amp craps out on you? It's game over for the bass then.

I always ask for both if possible. At least then you're covered for amp disasters and PA issues.

theshadow2001 · #16 05-06-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanAd

That is really unusual to mic the cab and not run a DI. What is the sound guy going to do if your amp craps out on you? It's game over for the bass then.

What if the mic craps out? What if the DI craps out. What if the electricity goes? What if a fuse blows. What if your bass breaks all its strings?

Really anything can crap out. You have to run under the basic assumption that your gear is going to last the gig. If you can't trust it to do that then chances are you should look at getting more reliable gear. I'm not saying stuff doesn't break down in the middle of gigs. But contigencies can be provided for.

bleedingfingers · #17 05-06-2008, 04:14 PM

Hi Amos
How big is the room you're playing in and how much amp
do you have ?

The reason I ask this is maybe the tech. is getting good bottom end from you and just needs to mic it to get some
natural mids and high end .

Also maybe the stage has some bad power or grounding issues buzzing etc.

When I'm playing gigs I just ask techs.to use my line out
as I spent a lot of time making sure it has a good balanced tone thats not to bottom heavy . I also like the comp.
thats in my amp so thats in my mix as well .

I've gotten grief from techs in the past about this but after they tried it and saw that the tone was good they did it my way.

It doesn't hurt to ask the tech to try it your way .

When I'm mixing other peoples gigs I always try to take a line out of the amp or DI and also mic the cab .
This just gives you more to work with .
If I'm getting a good sound from the DI I might not even use the mic .

Most soundtechs are doing there best to make you sound good because if it sounds like ass they're the guys everybody blames .

Talk to this guy He might have a good reason for doing
it his way .

cheers B.

wpatton11 · #18 05-06-2008, 04:52 PM

I've found that most sound men I deal with ASK you what you're looking for, on the premise that the club or concert venue hired you for what you do, and sound guy wants to expedite that thing you do, that thing that got you there - no?
Seems like a funny attitude, especially if you know what you want and how technically to get it, and it's appropriate for the room / gig.
Does he have an attitude problem? Do you own a chain saw?
...some thoughts-

BassmanAd · #19 05-07-2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshadow2001

What if the mic craps out? What if the DI craps out. What if the electricity goes? What if a fuse blows. What if your bass breaks all its strings?

Really anything can crap out. You have to run under the basic assumption that your gear is going to last the gig. If you can't trust it to do that then chances are you should look at getting more reliable gear. I'm not saying stuff doesn't break down in the middle of gigs. But contigencies can be provided for.

Right, which is why I think it's a good idea to run a DI and a mic, as I said in my post. At least you're covered for any situation. Thankfully it's a scenario I've never had to deal with.

addylewis · #20 05-07-2008, 03:47 PM

Sometimes the singer/soundguy from my band refuses point blank to stick the bass through (kustom groove with 4x10 cab...you think he's scared lol?)

Ok, sometimes you don't need it through - last gig we did though I went through quietly and didnt crank...now I dunno how much I went through, but I could have maybe done with a bit more...I was using slight overdrive all night killing the low end but I was simply happy I went through

(I still remember the first gig I did with my kustom - I ACTUALLY managed to overpower the guitarist by cranking...well, if you go refusing to put the bass through the PA simply coz of the capabilitys of the amp, he's GONNA crank isn't he?)