submixer and related questions

[dancrocker]

I play in a church band and have two problems I'm trying to solve:
-Sometimes we don't have enough mic inputs
-Both the electric guitarist and I don't play through the PA (the PA speakers are pretty wimpy) but where we stand requires us to have a monitor.

We use a Soundcraft EPM12 for the main board:
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=136
It has 12 mono inputs (XLR and 1/4") and two 1/4" stereo inputs. It has two AUX outputs that we use to drive monitors (one for floor monitors that are chained together, one for hotspots that we only use for vocals, also chained together).

The most obvious solution to both of these problems would be to simply buy a mixer with more channels. This way, we'd be able to mix the guitar and bass into the monitors while leaving them out of the mains as well as getting more inputs for other things. The problem is that replacing the main board is probably cost prohibitive. Assuming this is the case, it seems like the next best solution would be to add a sub-mixer with a reasonable number of XLR inputs and connect several of the mics to this. A four XLR input sub-mixer would net three additional mic inputs. Then, we could use the inputs this frees up for monitoring guitar and bass. We'd also net one additional mic input. I'd like a couple more so maybe a six channel mixer would be a better choice (if one exists). The concern I have with this approach is that I wouldn't have independent control of the volume of these sub-mixer inputs in the mains vs. the monitors. I guess I'd have to be content with this. Please let me know if I'm wrong about this.
As I'm not all that savvy about live sound, I'd appreciate any mixer recommendations. Low cost is important but it would have to work well. Some limited EQ on the channels would probably also be a requirement.

As for monitors, we currently have two floor monitors. Neither is positioned right now for the guitarist to hear so we'd probably need to add one more. They're currently chained together and I assume would could chain one more.

As it turns out, I've been experimenting with a semi-goofy dedicated monitor solution for me and the guitarist. I have a very old Boss mixer that has four, 1/4" channels. I also have a small fender practice amp. I connect the tuner output of the guitarist's amp to one input and the effect send output of my amp to the mixer, then connect the mixer output to the practice amp. This works ok but the Boss mixer is pretty noisy because I need to turn up the gain fairly high to get a reasonable level so I can hear myself. I don't have to turn the guitarist's gain up nearly as high. For some reason, the level of the effect send output of my amp is a lot lower than the tuner output of the guitarist's amp. In general, this approach would solve the monitor problem but would obviously not increase the number of "main" inputs available. This might be ok if I could get a cheap (very cheap) low channel count mixer that had good noise performance. The mixer would need virtually no features and wouldn't even need to sound all that good. This would also eliminate the need to buy another floor monitor.

Again, comments/recommendations welcomed. If you have a better idea for me to solve these problems, lay it on me

[MNAirHead]

3 intro questions

-what demographic is your church (blue hair count)
-Are the sound guys paid or random volunteers
-are your amps up on stage/altar or do you have some enviornmental control
-what complaints are your congregants giving?


OVERALL.. it really sounds as if the first step is having a pro audio engineer to assess the mess... I'm guessing the sound system was pieced together.

Until then, sounds as if you have some interesting and workable experiments going... for this setting the Behringer mixers aren't as bad as folks say.. they're pretty quiet... for the "testing" money it may be church appropriate.

[dancrocker]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

3 intro questions

-what demographic is your church (blue hair count)
-Are the sound guys paid or random volunteers
-are your amps up on stage/altar or do you have some enviornmental control
-what complaints are your congregants giving?


OVERALL.. it really sounds as if the first step is having a pro audio engineer to assess the mess... I'm guessing the sound system was pieced together.

Until then, sounds as if you have some interesting and workable experiments going... for this setting the Behringer mixers aren't as bad as folks say.. they're pretty quiet... for the "testing" money it may be church appropriate.

The church is catholic but the mass we play at is the youth mass. We play contemporary christian rock and the people who attend are generally young. The sound guy is basically me (volunteer, not paid, limited experience). The sound system was put together by a professional and isn't really "pieced together". As I said, a 14 input board (12 mono, two stereo), main speakers hanging from the ceiling (smaller than I would have liked them to be but this was done before I joined), two AUX outputs driving passive monitors. We're getting no complaints from anyone; they love us .

The main issue is that, because it's a catholic church, the altar is the center of attention, not the music. So, we're positioned off to the side and end up behind our amps. I am far enough behind such that I am close to the floor monitor that the drummer uses. So, if there were an input available for me on the main board, I could put myself in this monitor. This would have the added benefit that the drummer could hear me better. However, he's not complaining now so it's probably not a priority. However, the guitarist is too far away from the floor monitors to use them so we'd need another one for him.

I'm hesitating to contact the professional who sold us the current equipment because it seems like every time I do, we wants to sell us a bunch of crap. I don't trust that he's got our real needs in mind.

I'll look at the berhringer mixers.

I am right about the downside of the sub-mixer setup, right? Since it only has one output that goes to the main board, the monitor and main levels will be tied together?

[WayneP]

It’s hard to tell if the problem you’re having is not being able to hear the monitors, or your own amps. If all the mic channels are used, have you tried running your guitars into the mixer’s stereo inputs?

The concern I have with this approach is that I wouldn't have independent control of the volume of these sub-mixer inputs in the mains vs. the monitors. I guess I'd have to be content with this. Please let me know if I'm wrong about this.

You are correct, you’d get one signal for both mains and monitors from the sub mixer. Are you micing the drums? That’d be the place to use a sub mixer to free up inputs.

As for monitors, we currently have two floor monitors. Neither is positioned right now for the guitarist to hear so we'd probably need to add one more. They're currently chained together and I assume would could chain one more.

Depends on the amp and speakers. Your floor monitors are probably 8-ohm, so in order to add a third one your amp would have to be capable of handling a 2-ohm load. However, hot spots are usually 16-ohm, so you could safely add a third monitor to that chain with any amp.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Pedulla Club #45

[dancrocker]

Originally Posted by WayneP

It’s hard to tell if the problem you’re having is not being able to hear the monitors, or your own amps. If all the mic channels are used, have you tried running your guitars into the mixer’s stereo inputs?

You are correct, you’d get one signal for both mains and monitors from the sub mixer. Are you micing the drums? That’d be the place to use a sub mixer to free up inputs.


Depends on the amp and speakers. Your floor monitors are probably 8-ohm, so in order to add a third one your amp would have to be capable of handling a 2-ohm load. However, hot spots are usually 16-ohm, so you could safely add a third monitor to that chain with any amp.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



Pedulla Club #45

The problem is that we can't hear our own amps so I need to add a monitor of some type for us. As for using the stereo inputs, we actually already are (only recently though as I just sort of realized we could use them ). We use one for a keyboard and the other for an acoustic guitar. This freed up two of the inputs that have XLR that we can use for mics. We sometimes still need more inputs though.
As for the submixer, thanks for this clarification. We don't mic drums. The only instrument we mic is the piano. Sometimes we have a set of congas that we mic as well but not often. The rest of the mics are used for singers.

[dancrocker]

I found two mixers that look interesting for my application (at least the application that gives me a local monitor for me and the guitarist):

http://www.mackie.com/products/402vlz3/index.html
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/802.aspx

The behringer has more inputs (at least more 1/4"), more elaborate EQ, and is $40 cheaper. With the behringer, I could have a total of 4 mono inputs (2 XLR, 2 1/4") while with the Mackie, I'd only have 3. I don't have much of an application for stereo so stereo inputs seem like kind of a waste.
Mackie seems to have a better quality reputation than Behringer though.

Help me choose. Is there some major feature difference between these that I missed?